dbkbali
Sorry buddy if you are a foreigner and not Indonesian you are already misrepresenting, because if you are a foreigner you have no ownership rights and the reality is you own nothing, the fact you are willing to be a minority investor is meaningless.
gilbert de jong
in other words..you're looking for a bozo who will put up alot of money, takes all the risk, and at the end (lease) still doesn't own anything...
mat
Hey Balilombok,
It seems the way this forum has been going is that someone puts a post then other members line in their anonominity up to piss on the posters bonfire. Seems that few get a chance to air their ideas/proposals without criticism from those that have no interest at all in what you are saying. If anyone was interested in such a large business investment then I'm sure they or their legal team will be able to look after their own interests. I am finding it all very sad. Good luck in your business ideas and a happy and prosperous new year to you.
Balilombok
mat wroteSeems that few get a chance to air their ideas/proposals without criticism from those that have no interest at all in what you are saying. If anyone was interested in such a large business investment then I'm sure they or their legal team will be able to look after their own interests. I am finding it all very sad.
Thank you Mat. At least there is a few candle in the dark (brought a smile to my grin).
See you near Tanjung Aan, mate
Fred2
Lombok being a "Muslim" Island is not a problem for me, But other people will see it very different, some western people will not go into a shop staffed by muslim looking people in Bali, I have had travel agents tell me not to go to Bali, but instead go to Bangkok as there is no Muslim people there.
I watched a show last month, The top ten famous how died because they did not believe. John Lennon died because he was shot, not because of he's religion.
I prefer Java because there are no tourist, Bali is tooooo western for me. he he he
I do remember a expat being set on by locals because he asked the mosque to turn the speakers down????
Balilombok
[b]Branded Villas is indeed a good investment solution,and requiring much less capital.[/b]
Mark wroteI would team up with one of the major hospitality companies (you mentioned several already) to sell 'branded residences', ie selling villas directly off plan under the brand name of the hospitality company. The brand will give your project credibility and the deposits paid will allow you to start development.
Thanks a lot. I can see you have analyzed this model of Bali/Phuket quite deeply. Maybe I shall hire you if I could afford it hehehe
(You may of course PM me if you find someone interested)
Other hotels we know using your model are The Heaven, some Harris, Aston, some Alila, Karma, Anantara, Banyan Tree...
As you wrote: etc etc
Yes, I could possibly use this model myself.
FYI, some of the international brands interested by a boutique hotel on part of my lands (including one you named) has offered me their Chinese Indonesian partner just to do that (developing 45 branded villas). However I don't feel too comfortable with those cold guys in the hundreds of MUSD league.
I would prefer a foreign partner of my size. Maybe you would feel the same, Mark?
I prefer a (foreign) outside investor to deepen itself into it because I see myself very busy looking over the harmony/rules of my small eco-resort (where several hotels will be in the long term, plus several green zone and nature related activities). He or she is taking a risk but can also do extremely well (as did most of the investor in the properties we mention).
The only part I differ w you is that the investor should not start the villas construction from deposits alone. You are right many investor do but I prefer to select an investor who comes with sufficient cash (say 50% of total budget). So hotel can open and villas can be delivered even they are not all sold at the time.
Thank you for your support. The perfect centerstage oceanfront lands are now fully paid/certificated and 3 foreign brands love the place, so I am reasonably confident...
Balilombok
gilbert de jong wrotein other words..you're looking for a bozo who will put up alot of money, takes all the risk, and at the end (lease) still doesn't own anything...
Sorry you read too fast Gilbert,
We are in the most common investment case for the hotel industry here.
The one who doesn't put any money is The Brand (From hotel Aston to hotel Zaza, the brand somehow commits to the occupancy, for 10 to 15 years, but don't own part of the hotels).
Usually the developer of the hotel owns 100% of it (the land, the buildings on it, the value of the business).
In some case, the hotel owner doesn't want to pay for the land and just lease it for 20 or 30 years.
This alternative is frequently used in Seminyak, Kerobokan & Canggu at Bali, including by owners of Kudeta, Sea Sentosa, for whom your tag "bozo" is not really the one deserved :friendly_wink:
NOT HERE! In my case, the hotel owner can either buy my land (with a 40% discount on prevailing prices), he then own 100% of his 45 villas estate. I repeat ALL (land, villas, restaurant, business). He or she can sell what he wants (including some villa units as Mark well explained this variant before).
Or if the hotel owner is a bit short in capital, or if he or she wants to see me involved in risks and return, then he or she can request that I put the value of my land in his or her PMA company. The investor is then the majority partner and myself the minority partner. In this alternative I don't get paid anything and we own all together.
Nothing unusual! I hope at least some people understand :hopelessness:
Balilombok
[b]If you are a foreigner you have no ownership rights & the reality is you own nothing![/b]
Hi dbkbali,
I understand you are crashing on me this way...
After all, Mark and I, and many others on this forum, can point a few "Property Developers" who are eager to sell you 99 years "strata title" apartments & villas without even controlling the land (more than 10, 15 or 20 years).
On 26 years in Indonesia I rescued a handful of foreigners on this "misrepresentation" already. Some poor people are ready to buy property without asking to see the land certificate(s) !!!
Someone remind me to write a post about that if there is a high demand.
Notice that this criminal "misrepresentation" is done by foreigners and by Indonesians developers as well.
One more time, I am not selling land. I am looking for ONE investor business person, who usually starts by hiring lawyers.
Then, lawyers explain to the future hotel owner that
1) He or she must create a PMA to own the land, the buildings, the business.
2) He or she shouldn't start to spend the first dollar before the 5 hectares land titles (Sertifikat Hak Milik) have been mutated by the BPN land agency to the name of his or her PMA. This is what we are going to do.
This is to answer your legitimate worry about the hotel owner's PMA truly owning all freeholds certificates before starting construction.
Now, I would be disappointed if your questions was just being nosy how a particular OP owns his or her particular freehold plot.
Is he using old friends? Is he using wife and in-laws? Does he own a PMA? I have the right to know!
Then, we would answer to this nosy person : take all hundreds OPs of this forum requiring some advice to fix his or her swimming pool, looking for a lawn mower, or putting his or her freehold house for sale, and promptly post them:
Hello Buddy, I think you can't sell this house.
You there, stop fixing it! You are a foreigner, this is not your pool...
Gosh! You own nothing, don't ever try mowing this lawn !!
:highly_amused:
Psssttt, better we save it for 90 days
THIS will earn the prize of the best mass April fools' of the Indonesian expat community. Ever !!
:applause:
:highly_amused::highly_amused::highly_amused:
Note: I affix for your pleasure another beautiful picture of "not so misrepresented" coastline of South Lombok
Fred2
One year the Jayakarta Bali was over booked, they offered return transfer to Jayakarta Lombok + money, in the end they booked people into other hotels on Bali & run them around with one of the hotel mini buses for free.
If it happened to me I would have pushed for joga.
My idea of a PMA is a foreign own company(foreigners can not own properties) is a 25++year lease in the companies name?
The foreign investment board sets the amount of investment, a PMA can hold in industries, so were dose your 45 villa resort fit in??
Fred2
I m not talking about PT, just PMA so is a PMA allow to own land outright or is it leased????
So the 2010 negative investment list which is still current & list hotels, you are classing the villa project as what????
You know dodgy PMA can be started about 20mill & no money invested.
The Jayakarta (which is at Senggigi) is not doing the best because it lost in October 2011 the booking of all Garuda pilots and stewardess (who sleep now in the South). Not a good investment, that why I have a 10year plan.
Balilombok
By the way, Fred, I am not a lawyer...(I am a graduate engineer).
And even after so many years di Tanah air, I am far from being omniscient :icon_e_ugeek:
Also my answers surely lack the accuracy of legal consultants.
In some case my answers are more guided by experience of how myself and other fellow foreigners did well/badly.
On the other hand, after 15 years working as engineer and executive, I created in Indonesia a PMA now employing 50 persons and a social foundation (Yayasan) now employing 85 persons, so I am not either writing of subjects far from my professionnal experience.
davita
I smell the old Bali commission trick....lets see....if I had thought of this scheme....
I convince foreign investors that I have been in Bali many years and know all the traps. I explain in a forum how credible I am as I help others, who may be wary, the difficulty of purchasing property in Bali. I then follow up by indicating I have seriously gorgeous and legal land to sell. Then I throw in a convuluted business plan and how an Investor can establish a PMA where they can legitimately own property. They get the lawyer and proceed with the purchase.
That's when they find the land is actually owned by a WNI buddy of mine but, by then, the hook is set and trap has sprung. The investor is excited, doesn't really care the rightful owner so long as the title will become his, and commits anyway.
I then ask the rightful owner....when do I get my commission or share in the property I've just sold on your, the principal's behalf, as you didn't want to promote the project yourself?
Just a thought!
dbkbali
I think Davita is right.
Mr BaliLombok is conveniently avoiding the question about ownership of this land. So for someone who has provided advice to several foreign investors , as an international legal consultant, who typically have been the "wealthy friend's" who have invested in the types of great opportunities that Mr. BaliLombok purports to be selling, and then have found themselves, having to write off the millions of dollars invested, I would note the following:
1) Mr BaliLombok conveniently avoids answering the question about the land he purports to own. The fact is if he is a foreigner in Indonesia he legally owns nothing.
2) If he does not "own" the land then he should be clear on who does, and if he wants forum members to promote his project to their "wealthy friends" on the basis of his eco friendly buzzwords and beautiful pictures, then he should, prior to even wasting forum members time on reading his garbage at least, indicate what permissions and power of attorney or agency agreement he has with the real land owner to market this land/project business opportunity, whose existence, without clear title or ownership rights to the land is meaningless.
3) I am sure Mr. BaliLombok can find many lawyers and notaries quite happy to earn a fee for setting up a pma and bribing the appropriate people at the Investment Coordinating Board. The reality is if Mr BaliLombok, under current foreign investment laws maximum PMA ownership for such a facility is restricted to 49%.
4) I am sure Mr. BaliLombok and most of the lawyers and notaries, drooling for the fees to be made from this transaction, will then tell you, no problem we can find an Indonesian to own the other 51% and then you can have a nominee agreement so you effectively own 100%. Neglecting to tell you that a provision of the Foreign Investment law specifically states that any nominee arrangements for the Indonesian portion of the investment, will automatically invalidate the foreigners investment. Please feel free to confirm this with any international law firm.
5) I note that on another thread Mr BaliLombok even suggests that it is safe for foreigners to own land through nominees, well sorry to rain on your parade but even this can be ruled illegal. Probably ok to take the risk on the back of a long term lease for a vacation home, but really a different story for multimillion dollar investments.
Mr. BaliLombok, you should note that the generous reward/commission available even if this was a credible opportunity, is significantly below market. Real estate commissions, as I am sure you know are generally 5%, and if we are talking about commissions for raising capital for a business they typically range from 5-8%, not that this is an issue here as most wealthy investors at least expect to see a professionally prepared investment memorandum.
Mr. BaliLombok, you are right, a business person will hire a lawyer, but before they hire a lawyer and waste their time, money and effort in such an activity, they usually review an information memorandum which provides full disclosure with respect to the project, which details the full legal and proposed financing structure for the project, not just flash pictures and a bunch of eco buzzwords.
The fact that you are not even willing to make such a document available for your business proposition on this forum; that you have avoided disclosing in any of your posts the real situation with respect to the ownership of this land; and the fact that there are several people who are now discovering that the Indonesian land their Indonesian lawyers and notaries told them they securely owned, they don't really own, suggests to me in the absence of seeing a professional information memorandum, that you are either trying to flip a bad investment you made, or just another real estate agent desperate to find an investor. Probably the former given your other thread purporting to be an expert about how to structure nominee arrangements?, I guess you had a previous bad experience to be aware of the issues with respect to a nominee!
Yes I am crashing on you, if you are a professional with a genuine business opportunity and you want to post it on an expat forum, at least provide a professional business outline for what you are proposing.
Fred2
Also my answers surely lack the accuracy of legal consultants.
I can see that
You may need the services of Lombok Solutions
Balilombok
[b]EOYP ?? (End Of Year Paranoia)[/b]
davita wroteI smell the old Bali commission trick....lets see....if I had thought of this scheme....
I convince foreign investors that I have been in Bali many years and know all the traps. I explain in a forum how credible I am as I help others
Waooohhhh. It is about time that year 2012 ends up!!
If we don't die in a doomsday of burning meteors, we will die from mass paranoia :icon_surprised:
Maybe the devastating effects of acute reading of John Grisham works? or Robert Louis Stevenson's "The strange case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" ?
May I suggest something lighter ? What about "Fifty shades of Grey" for a lady who truly deserves it for smelling fake identity a bit too hastily...
I tried to answer politely to all posts expressing why they don't like my private business opportunity...
Next time I want to sell my car, I ll better revert to the Bali Advertiser. At least I won't be contacted by persons NOT interested (will I? :icon_e_surprised: )
Now, it becomes a public game to try to find where is the catch in my private business opportunity !!
Must it be a catch? Usually yes tells our grandmothers... "If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is"
Okay, okay I give up. I will give you the catch. But you will be disappointed you didn't find by yourself!! At least most of the naysayers will (probably) leave me alone for year 2013.
A) My Identity and the fact I like to help people against dishonest practices.
Sorry no catch. Only legitimate people will know.
Yes, I am new to this Balipod forum but people interested to check my "being helpful or not" credentials for business purpose can find the same postings of mine about "insufficient nominee packages" in forum from my native country about buying land in Indonesia, posted since 2009... More on PM.
B) Davita's commercial commission
Sorry no catch. If and when the major project goes through. I don't see myself trying to save the 1% (!) commission.
Would you?
C) Land deal with the future hotel owner.
Too sweet, too flexible, too cheap, must be a catch.
Yes, there is but it was not hidden (a few people had quickly understood it)
From the initial post, it was mention that this eco-resort will host a couple of hotels, to be developed in 2015.
The catch was just that the opening of a high-end branded hotel in a resort is jacking-up the value of the lands surrounding it.
Satisfied??
Not enough? Hmmmm 2013 might prove a bit complicated for you...
Balilombok
dbkbali wroteIf you are a professional with a genuine business opportunity and you want to post it on an expat forum, at least provide a professional business outline for what you are proposing.
What's happening here??
Are you guys crashing this way on any thread in the business category by suspecting by anticipation that this car has no engine? this bike does belongs to the OP? This cargo container for Frankfurt is going to Los Angeles?
If you are not interested by an offer, just stop read it. Don't jump to conclusions that it must be phony
GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT has proven its DANGEROUS limit in the previous twenty centuries, Or so I thought!!
About the attack of dbkbali (someone tells me if I am wrong reading it as unnecessary violent & suspicious?), it would be too long to elaborate on all ill-informed points.
Just a few pointers:
1) Yes, it is obvious that when an OP advertise to sell his or her house, such OP has the permission of the PMA company, Indonesian family or friends, having the house to their name.
If not, any notary will stop there (and the buyer would probably punch seller's face).
Most good notaries will ask more than a Power of Attorney. They will ask the PMA representative, the Indonesian family or Indonesian friends + wives/husbands to attend and sign the deed of sale.
2) No, it is not fair to say that one needs to bribe the Investment Board to set up a foreign investment company (PMA) where the foreign principals own more than 49%.
If it were the case 3/4 of PMA would be illegal and the much needed flow of capital for Indonesia would dry out.
3) No, I am not suggesting any investor to use nominee. In a post of mine I advise any newcomer against nominees.
4) Yes, In my previous answer to you (just #25 above) I explain that any investor shall create a PMA (and move all land titles to his or her PMA). How much more clear shall it be?
5) Yes, eco-resort is presently a buzz word. But are you going to crash on any person sincerely trying to do less damage than developers at Bali, because he or she used some simplistic words you hate?
6) Yes, some people judge that I didn't post enough information for their interest, and my initial INVITATION for PM is here for that !!!! (It seems you skipped that too).
Then, after PMs, some people are interested and request to see the land certificates, etc around drinks.
Dust and suspicion can then settle down... (Let's hope they don't bludgeon me if the seawater is finally not to their liking)
7) No. Call me cheap (lean would be more fair) but my project can't afford your 5-8% commission. Since I will probably receive no cash for the land, the commissions I offered are already high for my wallet.
8) No, I don't think you would be a eco-friendly vision-sharing partner for me (in case you ask) :icon_mrgreen:
I wish you an happy new year and good luck in your own business
Balilombok
[b]Silent Majority[/b]
Guys and Ladies of the New Year,
The post you are reading was supposed to be a private business proposal.
It turned in an unnecessary debate about Lombok being populated with muslims, Lombok being too under-developed, about foreigners not owning land in Indonesia, about being a lease and not a freehold (it is freehold), about hiding a catch about commissions,about commissions being too small, about foreigners not being majority owner in PMAs, etc, etc
My mistake!!
I realize now that this particular Forum, even in the "Business" category supposed to save printed-paper and allowing win-win exchange between individuals is unfortunately too heavily polluted by some people, some of them loving the wolf pack attitude (maybe?)
Then things get heating up, with some violent attacks and defenses. Bottom line, it is NOT pleasant. It defeats the purpose. Sorry...
Except for a few messages of interest and some messages of support, I will never know what the silent majority was thinking in reading all this along...
A couple of new blind attacks by some new individuals and I will be forced to ask the Webmaster to close or remove my thread. What else would you do ?
:highly_amused: and sad at the same time...
Once more time, Happy new year celebrations.
Fred2
Balilombok wroteGuys and Ladies of the New Year,
The post you are reading was supposed to be a private business proposal.
It turned in an unnecessary debate about Lombok being populated with muslims, Lombok being too under-developed, about foreigners not owning land in Indonesia, about being a lease and not a freehold (it is freehold), about hiding a catch about commissions,about commissions being too small, about foreigners not being majority owner in PMAs, etc, etc
My mistake!!
I realize now that this particular Forum, even in the "Business" category supposed to save printed-paper and allowing win-win exchange between individuals is unfortunately too heavily polluted by some people, some of them loving the wolf pack attitude (maybe?)
Then things get heating up, with some violent attacks and defenses. Bottom line, it is NOT pleasant. It defeats the purpose. Sorry...
Except for a few messages of interest and some messages of support, I will never know what the silent majority was thinking in reading all this along...
A couple of new blind attacks by some new individuals and I will be forced to ask the Webmaster to close or remove my thread. What else would you do ?
:highly_amused: and sad at the same time...
Once more time, Happy new year celebrations.
You have put a business proposal on here, People have asked question?
Now a smart business man could snap the answers out & give a little detail.
Is a Muslim population a problem for Investors?
What is occupied rate & price of the say the Jayakarta Bali/Lombok?
Dose a PMA own or Lease ?
Do you only want a investor if he agrees to you Eco ideas?
What is the cost of owning & running one of your Eco villas?
You have cratered more question then answered.
This forum is mostly friendly so lets chill out a little.
Balilombok my wife also own land in Java, Bali & lombok. Due to no prenup my in-laws look good on paper. The land was cheap & we will build a shop in about 10years.
I hope the tourist do flock to Lombok.
Balilombok
Thank you Fred2
You use this Forum for much longer than I do so I take shelter under your experience than the majority of people reading posts are friendly.
Maybe you are right I shall chill out a little...
By the way I like this soft spoken way of yours to pass your points.
It seems we have put our savings in the same places, hehehe
Now some short business answers to the questions you suggest for a better analysis of the interested readers.
1) Muslim population
Tourist loves Bali religion more than any other religion. For tourists, Bali religion is like a free lunch...
Muslim religion doesn't have the same appeal to tourists. Most tourists are neutral on this subject. Some are negative.
The 1/3 or so tourists who come again and again to Lombok probably like the Sasak culture and people (I do too).
A last factor is that due to local people selling quickly their land (and moving back inland), 75% of the absolute coast line will soon be devoid of population.
This is not great news of course, but religion will be less and less of an issue for tourists and lombok expats, I think.
2) Occupancy rate & price of Jayakarta Bali versus Lombok
I don't know about the Jayakarta. I will enquire since the comparisons are interesting.
I know that Novotel Kuta has an occupancy higher than 70%, often 100% for the last six months. Rates are high (150 USD++ for a room, 300USD++ for a villa).
3) PMA own or lease
IMO the hotel owner = PMA owner will prefer that the PMA owns the land. The hotel owner will therefore not need to depreciate the land. The value of his or her business will also increase over time, not decrease as with a lease.
IMO lease is mostly interesting in area where land is too expensive (Legian, Seminyak & Kerobokan) or where too little freehold is available (same places).
4) Eco ideas
Yes, this one is very important. I am devising some guidelines for this area and I need all boutique hotels to abide with it. They are mostly about construction being low rise (2 storeys maxi), low density (less than 40%), a 100m setback from the beach (except for temporary wooden construction such as beach restaurants), the use of local materials, some limitations about speedboats and jetskis, certification from independent organizations about Green Hospitality (insulation, power savings, fresh water savings)
If we accept one investor who wish to develop differently, the impact to our small resort would be negative for all other boutique hotels.
Fortunately, most of the Brand owners in the boutique hotel business nowadays agree about the above "eco ideas". Most Brand owners get each hotel pass green certification. Hotel owner must agree with brand owner on these points.
5) Cost of owning a large one-bedroom villa 160 m2, with 6m plunge pool, on 400m2 land is 200K$ (for the hotel owner).
Cost of running it is roughly 24K$ per year including hotel overheads (assuming an average occupancy of 70%)
Thank you for your wish about tourists flocking to discover Lombok. But not too many...
davita
mat wroteHey Balilombok,
It seems the way this forum has been going is that someone puts a post then other members line in their anonominity up to piss on the posters bonfire. Seems that few get a chance to air their ideas/proposals without criticism from those that have no interest at all in what you are saying. If anyone was interested in such a large business investment then I'm sure they or their legal team will be able to look after their own interests. I am finding it all very sad. Good luck in your business ideas and a happy and prosperous new year to you.
I forgot to add to my previous post on how I should add to develop this sca... I mean scheme. Get a sycophant buddy to post to the forum how my plan is genuine and how offensive it is to dispute me. I then withdraw from the forum because people are mean...then threaten I will market my product to the free-to-advertise 'Bali Advertiser' so members of the forum will lose any benefit from my plan.
Surely then, I can increase my commission without cost to me, from the principal who actually owns the property, whom I dare not disclose..... otherwise I might not be the 3rd partner!
