scooterboysteve
Hi everyone,
Thank you 1st for a very informative forum and i have spent some time going though the different threads trying to get a grip with building a holiday/retirement home in Bali.
One question i keep asking myself is how much capital would i need to actually need to build a villa? On the surface this seems like allot to ask as there are so many components and variables involved in the question itself, so I'll try to be a little more precise in my hypothetical quest.
From what i understand the breakdown of costs would be as follows:
Stage 1:
Purchase land + building permits + notary costs + "additional costs"
I will purchase the land through my best friends son (UK friend married to Indonesian wife whose son has dual passport) who would act as the nominee. We would then lease the land and build over a period.
Stage 2:
Architect costs + Contractor costs + material costs + "additional costs"
I read on here that the total PM costs of building the villa vary from 2.0J m2 to 7.5m2. Is this correct? So I'm guessing around 3.5 - 4.0MJ per M2 would get you a good standard on finish including a pool of 5M x 3M?
Now i know that location or the land is also an important factor in all of the above, so as an example, what investment would one need to build a villa of 150 M2, or 200 M2, or 300 M2 in Seminyak, or Canngu, Munggu, or Beleang, or Kerobokan, Keramas etc?
Or another question would be "how much villa would (USD) $100,000, or $200,000, or $300,000 get me in Bali" if we followed the [U]above principles[/U] and [U]which location [/U]would these be in.
I know i have probably missed lots of things in my plan, i'm sure you guys and girls will help to fill in the gaps. Thank you in advance.
Having been coming to Bali for over 10 years we're ready to seriously look at building our dream home, but we want to make sure we've really thought and planned ahead before we even start the process.
Thank you all again for such a great forum.
gilbert de jong
Hi scooterboyssteve,
first of all welcome to the forum.
Stage 1 :
When your best friends son turns 18, and then within 3 years he has to decide wich nationality he wants...i.e. Indonesian or foreign, he decided to choose the foreign passport
instead of the Indonesian passport.. Then what do you do?
And I would say stage 1 is just buying the land and then the notarycosts for the contracts etcetc.. Some people own land for a couple of years and then start building their 'dream home'
Stage 2 : architect/contractor, IMB, etcetc...
As dor the budget (100,200,300k) If I were you, I would on the next trip seriously start looking for land and then take it from there.
Landprices keep going steadily upwarths, so what you might get today for 30million per are, can be 40million per are next month..know what I mean?
But first of all, take another look at how/who you want to 'use' as your nominee.
friendly greetings, gilbert.
scooterboysteve
gilbert de jong wroteHi scooterboyssteve,
first of all welcome to the forum.
Stage 1 :
When your best friends son turns 18, and then within 3 years he has to decide wich nationality he wants...i.e. Indonesian or foreign, he decided to choose the foreign passport
instead of the Indonesian passport.. Then what do you do?
And I would say stage 1 is just buying the land and then the notarycosts for the contracts etcetc.. Some people own land for a couple of years and then start building their 'dream home'
Stage 2 : architect/contractor, IMB, etcetc...
As for the budget (100,200,300k) If I were you, I would on the next trip seriously start looking for land and then take it from there.
Landprices keep going steadily upwards, so what you might get today for 30million per are, can be 40million per are next month..know what I mean?
But first of all, take another look at how/who you want to 'use' as your nominee.
friendly greetings, gilbert.
Thanks for the feedback Gilbert.
From speaking to my friend, he believes his son is able to keep both passports when he turns 18 and the UK don't take away your passport status, even though he may have a different one. That said, i/we have a number of years to come up with an alternative solution should this be the case, including going down the PMA route.
With reference to looking around, I'm due to be in Bali again in Oct and then for Xmas so I'll certainly look at getting out and about and looking at some potential plots. Can you recommend any good agents to meet up with?
Just looking at your figures, lets say I were to purchase 1 acre at 40J for the arce. Roughly speaking, we would need to cover for the IMB + Construction costs of lets say 4J per M2, and lets say the project building space was 400 sqm.
So this would equal:
Land Cost - 40,000,000.00
Construction Cost - 1,600,000,000.00
+ IMB + additional costs etc etc of (10% of total costs)
So would i be right in saying that we would be looking (very roughly) at around 2,200,000,000.00 (IDR) = 156,792.55 (GBP) for a 400 M2 villa built on an acre of land?
I may be way off but please let me know.
Thanks again...
Peter Ka
In the areas you want to live, there is nothing for Rp 40 mln per are. Think more of 100 to 200. 300 to 400 if 1km to the beach.
gilbert de jong
You're welcome,
just thought give you a heads up about the passport thingy, because if the indonesian government (imigrasi/kelurahan) knows about his dual citizenship,
he will be 'forced' to choose one nationality before he celebrates his 21st birthday. Dual citzinship is not legal in Indonesia (but then again, alot is not legal but happens anyway here)
1 acre is 40 are(little bit more, but the math is easier this way), so that would be 40 x IDR. 40.000.000,- = IDR. 1.600.000.000,- for the land purchase.
then add 5% of that for the nominee, another 5% for salestax, and 2,5% notarycosts = IDR 192.000.000,-
if you put a villa on it, wich measures 250sqm @ 4jt per sqm, = IDR. 1.000.000.000,- (contractors usually ask for an percentage of the estimated buildingcosts as their wage)
costs of IMB (roughly) 2% of buildingcosts = IDR. 20.000.000,-
That would give a total of IDR. 2.812.000.000
Back to the architect/contractor, since he gets an percentage of the estimated buildcosts as a wage...you wouldn't be the first who pays for estimated A-quality, but the contractors puts in B-quality stuff, by doing so he is enlarging his profit...so imho, you need to be here during the build to make sure what you paid for actually goes into the building. just a heads up.
If you're up north or east of the Island, I could introduce you to a friend of mine who will drive you around visiting land for sale.
he's canadian/hungarian and has been on the island 15+ years, married to a Balinese woman.
imho a stand-up guy and if you explain to him what kind of land you're looking for he won't waist your time driving to places with no similarities to what you're searching
I know this because he helped me find the land where I've build my house :)
ronb
scooterboysteve wrote
One question i keep asking myself is how much capital would i need to actually need to build a villa? On the surface this seems like allot to ask as there are so many components and variables involved in the question itself, so I'll try to be a little more precise in my hypothetical quest.
One way to get a feel for what you can get for your money is to look at the existing villas for sale. You will find properties for $100,000 or less - going up to any high price you name. After looking at a range of proprieties and taking note of
* land size
* building size
* main features like beach-front, river view, ricefield view or whatever
* proximity to high price areas like Ubud, Canggu, Jimbaran, etc
you will get your "eye in".
And, who knows, you may even decide that buying an established property is the easier path to follow.
Rambutmerah
[b]Building[/b]
After my personal experience with building (on Gili Trawangan, Lombok) 2001, I can say with 100% surity, never again. We had 3 different buildingcrews during our construction time. 1 crew left and never came back (to far from home they said). 1 crew was fired because they where stealing our material and selling it, last crew stayed until all was finished but didn't do a satisfactory job. We where so fed up at that time that we just had to get the job done. I can add that the people stealing from us was in family with my husband, when confronted the answer was "your wife is so rich that it's no problem for her". I'm not a rich person by the way. We lived no more then 150 m from our buildingsite and was supervising the job daily but it was still a nightmare. My husband's local and speaks the local language but it was still a really bad experience for us. So my advice would absolutly be to buy a house instead of building one. It will save you money, sleepless nights, tears and frustration.
gilbert de jong
markittttt....where oh where is markit? I am sure he has some good comments for this thread.
Markit
Hey Gil! Buddy how is it goin?
I'm in Germany at the moment. Wie Geht's?
Skooterboy....
Building a villa on bali was the most fun I've ever had with my cloths on and if you live in the UK and want to chat about it drop me a PM with your number and I'll be in touch next week.
Other than that it's really all been written here just have the time and patience to dive back into the Balipod files and get stuck in reading.
Oktoberfest starts in 2 weeks!!!
gilbert de jong
yeeeiiihhh markit, Man you get around...france,uk, italy and now back in germany, ow and ofcourse NL hahaha.
Aber es geht mir gut mein freund, Ich hoffe mit dir geht auch alles gut, bist gesund und happy!
woei..oktoberfest, now that's something the germans should have a sosial cultural visa for ;)
I didn't want to be the first to say, that building your own home on Bali (like you did and I did) can be so much fun. Ofcourse there are ups and downs, stok habis pak, belum ada pak..etcetc but that's part of the fun...maybe not so much right there and then, but sure makes funny stories for when your build is done, sitting on your own terrace sipping a beer/wine/**** whilest remembering those times.
Ronaldinbali
[b]estemated budget[/b]
Building cost ex land, permits and transactions, Only building from the ground up is about 2 juta( very simple) till 6 juta per m2. 2nd floor will be 3,5 untill 7,5 juta per M2.
Pool can be made ad designed for 50-70 juta, depends on material you use.
Populaire
scooterboysteve wroteThanks for the feedback Gilbert.
From speaking to my friend, he believes his son is able to keep both passports when he turns 18 and the UK don't take away your passport status, even though he may have a different one. That said, i/we have a number of years to come up with an alternative solution should this be the case, including going down the PMA route.
With reference to looking around, I'm due to be in Bali again in Oct and then for Xmas so I'll certainly look at getting out and about and looking at some potential plots. Can you recommend any good agents to meet up with?
Just looking at your figures, lets say I were to purchase 1 acre at 40J for the arce. Roughly speaking, we would need to cover for the IMB + Construction costs of lets say 4J per M2, and lets say the project building space was 400 sqm.
So this would equal:
Land Cost - 40,000,000.00
Construction Cost - 1,600,000,000.00
+ IMB + additional costs etc etc of (10% of total costs)
So would i be right in saying that we would be looking (very roughly) at around 2,200,000,000.00 (IDR) = 156,792.55 (GBP) for a 400 M2 villa built on an acre of land?
I may be way off but please let me know.
Thanks again...
Hi Steve,
Approximately speaking, Rp 1,600,000,000 - Rp 1,800,000,000 would get you a 3 bedroom, single story build of a high quality - furnished with fixed cabinetry, turn key.
If you work with a builder on a commission agreement, expect to encounter some of the experiences shared here - your builder's estimate will mean little and you'll end up revising your budget upwards several times.
There's no reason why a reputable builder wouldn't give you a fixed price.
All the best..
Populaire
Populaire
Internal Enclosed:
- Rp 2.8jt / m2 in today's market is below "Rumah Tipe" (development housing) grade
- Rp 3.2jt / m2 is development housing grade in Java - not turn-key (no cabinetry, AC, countertops and / or appliances)
- Rp 4jt / m2 is entry level for private residential quality construction in Bali
- Rp 600jt will today build a 2 story ruko - CircleK - without the sign
- Analogy: Rp 3.3jt / m2 is the Tata Motors equivalent, Rp 4jt / m2 is the Daewoo equivalent, Rp 5.5jt / m2 is the Toyota equivalent and above such you're moving into a luxury market
All the best..
Populaire
gilbert de jong
Populaire wroteHi Steve,
Approximately speaking, Rp 1,600,000,000 - Rp 1,800,000,000 would get you a 3 bedroom, single story build of a high quality - furnished with fixed cabinetry, turn key.
If you work with a builder on a commission agreement, expect to encounter some of the experiences shared here - your builder's estimate will mean little and you'll end up revising your budget upwards several times.
There's no reason why a reputable builder wouldn't give you a fixed price.
All the best..
Populaire
ehm...3 bedroom BTN house for 600jt, but bedrooms are small...what I am trying to say is that a price is made up by sqm of a property... not by how many bedrooms a house/villa has.
True that an estimate is just an estimate, ussually the owners themself make changes to the original plans during the build...I know I did, and most of the people I know that have build themself did that too. There's another reason tough that it's called an estimate "force-majeur' for example :icon_wink: .
as for ronaldinbali his prices...yeah 2jt from the ground up, meaning no decent foundation into the ground :icon_biggrin:
The cheapest I have found, with a decent quality of build, without fittings like bathtub or toilets etcetc...but ofcourse with all plumbing and electrical-wiring
within walls/floors, was 2,8jt per sqm and the design is for free. Design for free means, all drawings needed for IMB etcetc...
MDoliveck
I would make sure you go with legitimate company (builder and architect) and yes like everyone said you have to do your homework first. Good luck to you:)
balibule
[b]Imb[/b]
gilbert de jong wrotecosts of IMB (roughly) 2% of buildingcosts = IDR. 20.000.000,-
Hi Gilbert
Did you use an agent to get your IMB? My house is 300 SQM and I paid Rp 2,300,000 for my IMB. An agent wanted to do it for me at Rp 25,000 per SQM which would have cost me 7,500,000
Rp 20,000,000 is high I think.
gilbert de jong
one year or 18 months ago the fee's/costs for an IMB have changed...it used to be a set price per sqm, no matter if you would build a cowshack or a multibillion villa.
the change entitles from a setprice per sqm to a % of buildcosts.
Then there's a difference in IMB's...there's one valid for 5 years, and then there's one wich has no 'expiry-date'...
there's also a difference in percentage between building and swimmingpool...if I remember right for a pool they calculate 2,5% per sqm and for a building 1,5%...that's why I used roughly 2% in the example :icon_wink:
btw, if someone is interested in seeing pics of a 2.7jt per sqm build, I will post some pics...judge yourself it it is 'decend quality or development grade"
here's a teaser :icon_biggrin:
btw, I am no way affiliated or getting financial compensation from this architect/contractor :highly_amused:
Populaire
Hi Gil,
A pool picture is not particularly indicative of build quality either way - for better or worse. But if one were to go along with the teaser image they might note firstly that the external flooring surrounding the pool is paving, driveway paving. You're correct, not even a developer in Bali would install such, but probably because a developer builds with the intent of a quick sale. The problem always is of course, that a picture tells little about build quality - even a showing often hides poor practices that are inevitable in the price range you reference. Naturally that works to the advantage of Developers as the longevity of their buyers' homes is not a primary concern.
- foundations *
- termite protection
- steel reinforcement *
- concrete grades *
- waterproofing (cementious)
* Note, that by law, in Indonesia structures must be calculated to the US standard + 60% for Live Loads & + 20% for Dead Loads, counted and designed by a Civil Engineer. Reputable builders increase this to 80% & 40% respectively. Safe assumption is that your referenced build price does not meet these standards, and even if they do on paper, they surely wouldn't on site.
In order to establish the basis for counting and designing the structure, ground tests are required - assumptions are not permitted, but are often made to the detriment of homeowners.
The above are merely the structural areas where shortcuts and misrepresentations are plentiful in the ongoing quest to cut costs.
Finishings are obviously a much longer list, but some critical and non-superficial items include (but are not limitted to):
- electrical instalations (ELCB's / MCB's / Lightning Protection Systems & applicable grounding)
- plumbing - drainage & water supply
So without even discussing finishing materials, above is a small extract of items that would almost be guaranteed to be deficient in the price range you reference, and realistically in almost all development projects. Significant money is saved by drastically reducing the standard of these installations as they're items that most overlook.
To reply to the teaser, as irrelavant as it may be to the subject matter, please see attached.
All the best..
Populaire
[ATTACH]862.vB[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]860.vB[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]861.vB[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]863.vB[/ATTACH]
gilbert de jong
great looking pics...
and you're right, there are alot of corners that can be cut when building something.
Trust me the following is nothing personal okey,
but I think the ratter big price difference between a developer (like you for example) and steve are overheadcosts.
I mean having an office, staff etcetc means having bigger expenses...he doesn't have any of that, works out of his home, no website, just word of mouth gets him projects.
Being as busy as he lately is, I doubt he's doing a crappy job.
At the moment he's building a one floor, triangular shape , open steele frame villa, two sides of the triangle top to bottom windows in sririt for a german/swiss family.
btw all materials come from java, steel, glass, aluminium, stones. I will ask him for pictures and post them here.
Anyways, to be clear, I am not saying you are wrong (pricewise) or don't know what you're talking about (buildwise).
just saying there are people that buy a avanza (toyota) just to later find out that a xenia (daihatsu) is the exact same car..know what I mean?
Populaire
Hi Gil,
We're not developers - we're Builders and only build for clients who have their own land.
While there are fixed operating overheads, there are also economies of scale specific to project classes. For example, we couldn't compete price wise with the likes Tata on builds over four floors - but in residential low rise we'd be very competitive. PPH is another reason why larger groups such as ours are competitive. As registered Builders in Indonesia, we receive PPH credits that provide a nett 2% reduction in taxes payable on total revenue. Companies operating as builders, that have not met the registration requirements for builders (portfolio of completed projects, number of CE's employed, active sites, etc) do not receive these credits - the credits are substantial as PPH in practice is applied to revenue, not earnings.
Our group is based in Java and in our Java operations, amongst private residences, which is the core of our business we also run a division that undertakes tendered development contracts for certain developers - so the numbers made reference to aren't pie in the sky.
Our Bali operations are limited only to private residential construction.
Another point mentioned, that may have been overlooked in discussing pricing is that when we make reference to finished prices on a square meter basis, the reference is made explicitly to internal enclosed areas, inclusive of fixed furbishings, AC and built in appliances. All other areas (E.g. External Under Roof, External Uncovered, etc), when factored are less than these rates. Yet many parties discuss meter squared rates by simply dividing a total cost by the total build size, including external structures, thereby lowering the referenced build rates. This can be significant given many Bali / Tropical homes have collectively more external built up area than internal.
The problem with the Avanza - Xenia analogy is as follows:
- these two cars have many common components, including most obviously chassis, body (and in smaller models, engine)
- those common components are manufactured to the same standard
- Avanza has higher end models with larger engines and more options, but to reiterate the point above, the common elements that are shared between the two cars are manufactured to the same standard
- the builds we are discussing however are not built to the same standard
This is by no means a proclamation of superiority over other builders. This is just the reality of the various standards / grades of construction that exist. There are many reputable builders in Indonesia that deliver quality homes, far superior to that of homes built in any western country - but none of them are quoting, or building for Rp 2.8jt / m2.
All the best..
Populaire
