Sanurian
I'm interested to know what measures other long-term expats in Bali have taken with regards to Health and Medical Insurance.
I've noticed a bewildering array of new "services" aimed at us in various publications, particularly [i]The Bali Advertiser[/i].
I've contacted a few myself but so far, they seem to be extremely expensive.
Personally, I've been using some Australian companies that allow me take out policies [i]via[/i] the internet and without being physically present in that country. The charges [i]seem[/i] to be reasonable - a [b]lot[/b] less than what some of the brokers in Bali are trying to flog. (I am an Australian citizen.)
And then again, so far, I've been lucky enough not to have to test their products.
Anybody have some thoughts or experiences with this?
:)
matsaleh
Hi Sanurian,
Funny you should mention this right now. I've also been researching medical insurance on Bali compared to Australian health funds.
The yearly premiums for BIMC (on the Bypass), which include emergency evacuation to your "principal country of residence", seem reasonable to me at just over Rp3 million a year (about AU$450 pa)
http://www.bimcbali.com/rates.asp
Sanurian, I'd be interested to know how BIMC's rates compare to premiums you're paying to your Australian medical fund and to other rates you've been quoted.
I too, would like to hear of other expats experiences with medical insurance.
Roy
From a post I made here Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:06:
Regarding insurance, we use a company called William Russell in England. Their web site is
http://www.william-russell.co.uk I have both our medical plan and life insurance on myself through this company. Our agent here in Bali is a wonderful lady by the name of Sue Speak. Her company is called Bali Medical Insurance and her e-mail address is
info@balimedicalinsurance.cominfo@balimedicalinsurance.com[/email]
Most all the expats I know get their coverage through Sue Speak, and most end up with insurance through William Russell. That company is very flexible in that it provides a number of plans and deductible options. As you likely know the higher the deductible, the lower the premiums. Personally we have the highest per person deductible, which is US $1,600.00. But as Sue will advise, one should select their deductible based on the amount they can afford to pay out of pocket.
matsaleh
Thanks Roy,
I've seen the term "deductible" mentioned on a few sites, but I'm not sure of the meaning.
Does this refer to what we call "excess", meaning the insured person pays the first part (an excess amount) of any claim, and the insurer meets the balance?
PS Sorry [b]Phil[/b], I've hijacked your thread. :oops:
matsaleh
[b]Re: RE: Medical Insurance[/b]
[quote=Roy]BIMC, in my view, is the most expensive source of medical insurance on Bali, and I don’t know any expats who have chosen it as their coverage...except for Phil, apparently.
[/quote]
Thanks for the info Roy, but I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Phil was using BIMC.
He didn't say say as much in any of his posts. I was the one who mentioned BIMC and Phil commented on it. :?
Roy
Fair enough Mats. I guess I read too much into his line....
[quote]I was already familiar with BIMC's services and they still appear to be quite reasonable.[/quote]
While re-reading his post, he refers to “travel insurance.” Travel insurance is not appropriate for expats as the length of coverage is very limited.
Bottom line with insurance is this: READ the fine print. Another tip: DEAL only with very reputable companies.
And, just for information, I pay about US $1,200.00 a year with William Russell to cover my entire family, including medivac, (my choice), and with a deductible of US $1,600.00 per person. There is no co-pay after the deductible.
Roy
Sorry Phil, as I did make an incorrect assumption. As for William Russell, deal with Sue here in Bali. Never consider insurance from the internet. It is always preferable to deal with an agent, and customize your coverage to what you can afford, and what you need. It’s just that simple.
Roy
PS...and by the way...if you die penny-less here in Bali, without family to claim your remains, you don't get an unmarked grave at Jimbaran. What you do get is a very efficient cremation (fueled by gas) at the crematorium located there.
PPS...I am not rich, just so you know.
Sanurian
Hi Mats
I was already familiar with BIMC's services and they still appear to be quite reasonable.
I'm not going to comment further about the private brokers I've contacted in the past (let's just say their quotes to me were bloody outrageous). Of course,
most of the time one does get what one pays for, so perhaps I'm being unfair to them. But, I
was looking for quotes for pretty basic services (like medical evacuation). I wasn't interested in policies with all the bells and whistles.
The Australian group I referred to earlier calls itself
Travel Insurance On The Net and it represents quite a few insurance companies. The address is:
http://www.travelinsurance.com.au/
My current policy is a fairly bare-bones one with
Sure-Save. It costs AU$396 for six months ("Visiting Friends/Relatives") and it's stated benefits go like this:
Medical and Additional Expenses Unlimited
Cancellation Costs Unlimited
Out of Pocket Expenses $6,000
Return Airfare $6,000
Special Events $2,000
VFR Bonus Accomodation Expenses $2,500
Luggage & Personal Effects (whilst in custody of carrier) $10,000
Emergency Dental $2,000
Loss of Income $10,000
Travel Delay $2,000
Resumption of Trip $3,000
Hijacking $2,000
Accidental Death $25,000
Personal Liability $2,500,000
Like I said, it's fairly basic and adds up to just over
Rp 5 million/year. The "extras" I can do without.
BIMC is looking better all the time.
Interested to hear more people's comments/experiences and how much they actually pay. (I know everybody's requirements are different - still, some rough estimates can be useful).
(Just writing this, Mats and now you've "hijacked my thread" - I wonder if that comes under my policy - you never know, it might be a health threat.)
:)
Roy
BIMC, in my view, is the most expensive source of medical insurance on Bali, and I don’t know any expats who have chosen it as their coverage...except for Phil, apparently.
Yes Mats, the deductible one chooses is the “out of pocket” limit one can afford to pay.
For me, having worked for the Prudential Insurance Company in the US as an actuarial underwriter, it is always more beneficial to “co-insure” meaning using insurance only for catastrophic events. The more one can afford “out of pocket” expenses, the less the premiums....simple underwriting.
Unfortunately, insurance related issues are only evident when a claim is made. It is only then that one realizes the wisdom of their choice. Or, in another way of expression, “penny wise, pound foolish.”
William Russell is a highly regarded international insurance carrier. Sue Speak, at Bali Medical Insurance is without doubt the most highly regarded agent for medical and life insurance on Bali. It’s just that simple.
Sanurian
A quick note here. I just checked the [i]William Russell[/i] company for an instant quote for their most basic (cheapest) cover in my case.
It comes to more than [i]Rp[/i] 20 million/year. A bit out of my price range, I'm afraid. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
And [b]Roy[/b], I [b]haven't[/b] chosen BIMC at all yet. Your pound/penny saying is a great one, often repeated by yourself. Maybe you should remember that not everybody is as "rich" as you. Maybe I'll end up going "Balinese"/Indonesian and to hell what happens to me in the so-called medical system here. Yeah - I know - a personal death sentence and a possible unmarked grave behind the Chinese cemetary in culture-less Jimbaran. Let's just leave it at that, OK?
Maybe I should have named this thread [b]Budget[/b] Medical Insurance. Maybe I shouldn't have even started it.
I'm interested in other people's opnions/experiences here, not just Roy's and his seemingly well-heeled expat gang around Ubud. Watch this space.
:roll:
irma1812
Thanks guys ..... for this important info. Medical ins is definitely an expense that we'll have to begrudgingly accept when we move to Bali. In England we've been spoilt by our NHS!! I just can't believe how people here moan so much about NHS service, they just don't know they're born!! Honestly!! :evil: :x
canubee
Sanurian, I highly recommend you read the small print on your policy it sounds to me based on the description of the policy you are describing that you have a vacation/travel insurance policy. A lot of these policies have small print that exclude coverage if you are out of your country of origin continuously for more than a set number of days in a year and other restrictions - hence they are much cheaper.
I concur with Roy as I recently researched insurance here in Bali with all the brokers and chose to go with Sue Speak who provided us with an excellent family policy thru Interglobal. No experience yet making a large claim - but according to many I have talked to this is the real test
tintin
Allow me to bring up a point which hasn’t yet been mentioned: [u]pre-conditions[/u]. (Roy, can comment further on this point, having had experience in the insurance industry, as an actuarial underwriter).
For expats who actually live in Indonesia throughout the year, or even short-term residents, “travel insurance” is not a solution: disregarding that they are too expensive, they (the ones I had investigated) do not cover “preconditions.”
In my particular case, since I have retired in the USA, and I am on Medicare (the US Government’s health insurance program), I am not covered outside the US. So, I hope for the best regarding my pre-conditions, and buy “travel insurance” to cover me for at least evacuation, should I end up in a ditch on my motorcycle. :(
Roy
Daniel has made an excellent point, and by doing so, forces me into an insurance 101 lesson.
By the term “pre-conditions” Daniel is referring to pre-existing medical conditions that the insurance applicant has been medically treated for prior to issuance of the new policy. While on the surface, it might sound like a scam, the point of this clause is to eliminate, or at least reduce new policy holders that clearly represent an intolerable risk to the underwriters.
A good underwriter may accept an applicant, who has a serious and existing medical condition, but within the policy exclude coverage for any expenses relating to that condition.
In the US, there is a huge data base of all medical information on all citizens called the MIB, or Medical Information Bureau. It was the first of the “big brother” data bases ever conceived. Insurance carriers in the US literally forced US doctors to be a member of the MIB or else their charges would not be covered.
In short, any, and every time you visit a doctor, that information goes into the MIB data base. Every, and I mean EVERY insurance underwriter consults the MIB for every applicant who seeks either medical or life insurance.
William Russell puts a time limit before coverage of pre-existing medical conditions is included within their health insurance policies. For me, as an old time actuarial underwriter, this makes perfect sense.
Currently, there is no equivalent of the MIB in Asia. However, every patient in the top Asian hospitals like Mount Elizabeth in Singapore, or Bumrungrad in Bangkok request a signed document from all of their foreign patients pertaining to release of medical records. Oddly enough, the “small print” on William Russell’s policies does not demand a release of medical records from such hospitals. So, one can read between the lines as to what that means.
The greatest fallacy that most insured folks find themselves in is being “over insured.” For certain, any medical plan available to any expat (in Bali or otherwise), that provides full coverage after a minimal deductible (you pay first) is very, very expensive. The “trick” is to determine what you can afford, out of your pocket, for first rate medical care BEFORE your insurance kicks in. Full coverage medical plans offering a $100 deductible are many more multiples of premium expense than similar plans where you pay the first $1,000 or $2,000 of the medical bills.
The idea is to cover (insure) yourself for those catastrophic events that could very well destroy and consume all of your family’s wealth, and every dime you ever earned.
Sanurian
Thankyou [b]canubee[/b]
I [b]have[/b] read the fine print in my policy and what you brought up doesn't [b]seem[/b] to be an issue. Having said that, I've been "suspicious" of insurance companies for many years. I agree [b]totally[/b] with you that it's [u]essential[/u] to read the fine print in [i]any[/i] contract, with [i]any[/i] company, in [i]any[/i] country and for [i]any[/i] purpose. Insurance companies aren't philanthropic societies - they're businesses - and [b]all[/b] businesses are about making profits.
It's unfortunate that one can't really try-before-we-buy policies. One has to go by corporate reputations, anecdotal "reports" and "fail-safe" provisions in place by those governments which have them, in cases of disputation resulting from mis-reading/mis-interpreting the fine print.
Despite rampant world-wide logging, it's still a jungle out there!
:)
Lee
[quote]I sometimes wonder why they even have sirens in the first place. (The drivers probably like the sound/noise.) [/quote]
Have you ever noticed how many motorbikes have siren sounds as horns, although barking dogs and neighing horses seems to be the horn sound of the day, hopefully that trend wont take off.
Lee
Sanurian, so far (10 years now) I have been taking my chances without insurance. Frankly given that I live so far away (East Bali) from the better medical services here I don’t think having insurance will help me to get the proper attention as quick as I might need it in a real emergency.
The usual drill here is that one gets taken to the local hospital first, who usually end up saying they can’t treat you and then its down to Sanglah Hospital, so about 3 hours of precious time is lost. I have known expats who have had insurance, but because they are too seriously ill or unconscious nobody knows. By the time the hospital finds out and is willing to give extra special treatment it’s too late.
I may look into insurance sometime in the future when my financial situation improves. In the meantime I will keep my fingers crossed and avoid getting on motor bikes.
By the way if I die here I will be buried in an unmarked grave in my husband’s village. My husband’s family along with about 20 other family temples in his area are not allowed to cremate the dead. They still call the ceremony a Ngaben but without burning the corpse. Not exactly the way I would like it, but I guess I wont have a say in it.
Sanurian
Hi Lee
You're dead right (pun unintended).
[quote]..given that I live so far away (East Bali) from the better medical services here I don’t think having insurance will help me to get the proper attention as quick as I might need it in a real emergency..[/quote]
That's an issue even for people living more centrally (Ubud included). I think we all know how [b]most[/b] Indonesian/Balinese drivers "respect" ambulance sirens - they don't.
I sometimes wonder why they even have sirens in the first place. (The drivers probably like the sound/noise.) Get stuck in some ceremony along the road and one is doubly stuffed. The only times I see people getting out of the way for "emergency vehicles" is when there's a big police escort for a VIP, or maybe a police Bikers' Club. Maybe that's because police carry guns. Maybe ambulance drivers should carry guns too...it might add to their credibility.
Life is still cheap here unless you run-down somebody's prize cock and actually stop. Or, horror of horrors, run over an 8 year-old kid riding a motorbike on a main road: no licence, no helmet (ha-ha), and parents or family members with no brains to let their kids use a motorbike in the first place. (Young, illegal motorbikers are definitely on the increase - I've seen them ride past police posts with immunity on many occasions. A "mystery" to me unless it is all about money and the ability to pay something. My step-son got stopped as a pillion passenger and only had Rp500 on him at the time. Yep - the cops took it!).
I haven't seen any concerted efforts to stop unlicensed kids endangering both themselves and innocent others on Bali roads. It's all a joke to them (and their families, I guess). I think [b]that's[/b] terrifying.
:roll:
Roy
Phil, what you and Lee have written is sadly very true...both regarding the ambulance situation and the kids on motorbikes. On two occasions I had to rush someone to Sanglah by ambulance. Once it was my mom who had suffered a stroke and the other was Matt towards the end of his battle with pancreatic cancer.
The complete lack of regard and unwillingness to yield to the ambulance was appalling. There is a great need for public awareness and enforcement of a mandatory yield law in this area...no doubt about it.
Lee, I would say the need for medical insurance for any particular person is a very personal decision. If I was single and without children, I likely would “self-insure” and take my chances not having coverage, as any financial disaster by not being insured would only affect me.
When Matt was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, he was only 44 years old, a non smoker and a non drinker. He was also married and with two children. He did not have medical insurance, but was able to draw on savings he still had in the states, and that, along with some borrowing got him through the roughly $30,000.00 of medical expenses including surgery at Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok. Luckily he did not need to be medivaced to Bangkok as that would easily added on another $10,000.00.
In the end, Matt didn’t make it and he passed away here in Bali a few months after his surgery and treatment in Bangkok. Luckily, Matt had life insurance, and that along with US Social Security survivor benefits payable to his two children keeps his widow and two kids in a solid financial condition.
