Coconuts aint just Coconuts, are they?

JohnnyCool

Both Adam and Gilbert have given you some very sensible suggestions. Another way, if you really can't determine who actually owns the coconut palms, is to start cutting them down. The "owners" should appear like magic. (I [b]don't[/b] support this approach, except as a very last measure.) Karangasem is famous for its [i]arak[/i] and [i]tuak[/i]. Maybe some of your neighbours are making coconut wine, distilling it, etc. But that's technically illegal. You could also just buy an industrial-strength crash helmet. :D

Markit

I would be grateful for some advice on how to deal with one of my new land owning problems here on the island - sorry, it's not very interesting but could be important, I'm not really sure. Hence my question :? I have a property that has about 30 coconut palms dotted all around it. Now up until exchange of contracts these coconuts were, so to speak, someone else's Manna. Apparently these coconuts are worth 8000 rupiahs each and here in Karangasem that aint peanuts (pun intended). I gather the previous owner did something with them other than harvest them himself and herein lies the rub. I don't know what or whom and can't find out easily. I don't want to shinny up those trees myself, I also don't want the damn things landing on my head as several have tried to do in the last few days. I also don't want to upset any of my new neighbours that may (or may not) have had the "right" to have them. What I would like to do is come to an arrangement with one of my neighbours for him to harvest the damn things, early enough that they don't fall from the sky and knock what few brains I have left - out. And share the value of them (50/50?) and also during my build, cast a watchful eye over the proceedings and when nobody is there that my materials don't go "walkies". I would be thankful for any advice - sound, funny or whatever. Thanks in advance Markit

Adam

Markit, I'm not sure whether it is even done in East Bali but can only pass on my experiences and what I've witnessed from East Java. I'd probably be more inclined to hunt down somebody who harvests 'gula merah', or what we know as palm sugar which will more effectively deal with the safety aspect of your coconuts. They cut the fruiting stems off completely and then harvest the sap that exudes from the stem, thereby removing any chance whatsoever of being hit in the head by a coconut 'cos they simply don't exist on the tree, but you will end up with small aqua bottles hanging off all your trees. Normally everyday or there abouts the harvester will climb up and make another cut to encourage the sap to keep seeping out and every now and again they remove the harvest for further processing. An extra downside to this is your trees are likely to end up with steps carved out of them (if they don't already exist). Alternatively, you could just cut them down for timber, our house in Java is made from a big jackfruit tree and some coconuts that were milled on the spot where the house now exists. As for asking for half the profits, geez, thats being a bit rich don't you think, surely things aint that tight are they :roll: ?? I'm sure the benefits of keeping good neighbours (eg. 'free' security if you look after your neighbours) will far outweigh any profit you hope to make from a few coconuts or coconut products, assuming you do indeed, have ownership of said tree's. Determining ownership would be your first step before I progressed with anything further. If the coconuts are just hanging around, then falling off and being wasted, I can't imagine anybody really believes they own them otherwise they'd already be gone. Or alternatively, leave them where they are and chance fate and 1 stray coconut might do us all a favour............ :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :D .....just kiddin' Adz

gilbert de jong

Hai Markit, Sometimes,like on my property too, the border/perimeter of the land is done with palmtree's, as in the lines in the drawing on the certificate..know what I mean? Anyways,it would suggest that the tree's (on my property) have two owners.. But if they are 100% yours, and the price overthere is 8000 rupiah per coconut, it won't be hard to find a willing neighboor to split 50-50 if he harvest them and takes care of the rest. The rest (what the previous owner did too, I think) is selling to the fruitguy on the pasar. or what I 've seen is that they(people in the desa) use the skin for cooking/washing dishes and sorts but I've no idea what thay do with the inside, hahaha, maybe sell the 'flesh' and fluid to the local warung or drink/eat it themself..I know they make 'Santen' from the coconut and use that for cooking several dishes...but don't think that would pay 8000 per nut. Just walk up to the guy who lives closest to your property and propose some kind of a deal...or ask him what he would do if you would let him harvest the coconuts. Do you speak Bahasa Indonesia? because that would certainly be appreciated by the people around you in the village, and would make 'transition' alot easier.. Same goes for keeping an eye on the buildingmaterials...do you have a contractor/architect? He is responsible for any buildingmaterials, and usually he is obligated to hire some people from the village to work(public relations,hahaha), but he could right away ask them about security in the evening...Know what I mean? Another thing what could make life better, better as in 'fitting in' to the desa, is go to the desa-meetings, have you met with the Kepala-desa(villageboss) already? For sure he would help you too, since he is in someway responsible for you.. Hope this helps a little,,good luck building and adapting to a more serene life in a desa. keep us informed of what you did and or how... Take care,friendly greetings......Gilbert.

ronb

If you are going to employ a gardener, he can either do it himself or arrange someone to do it.

toucan

We just pay a local guy to cut down the coconuts, he takes some home, mother in law keeps some for her cooking.

Adam

Markit, I would think that if the trees don't have steps cut in them, they will certainly need them in the future if you want somebody to harvest the coconuts. I sure it can be done but I've only seen people shimmy up the trees with these notches cut into them, so it might be an unavoidable excercise, regardless of whether its for sugar or 'nut harvest. [quote]As usual thanks for all the good (and the mediocre too) advice[/quote] Geez, you've really got a way with words... :roll:

Markit

As usual thanks for all the good (and the mediocre too) advice. I gotta say at the outset that I am not depending upon the coconut harvest to contribute to my already shaky economic situation - I can feck that up myself, thanks :oops: But in my experience if you give someone that doesn't know or understand you more than they ever expected ([b]all[/b] my coconuts) they will think you are an idiot, not love you, for-evermore. And on top of that you have nothing to bargain with later. So 50/50 it will stay. I will look into the palm sugar thing but having checked the local tree stock there don't seem to be any with steps in them so that may not be a runner here. [quote=JohnnyCool]Another way, if you really can't determine who actually owns the coconut palms, is to start cutting them down. The "owners" should appear like magic.[/quote] [quote=gilbert de jong]Anyways,it would suggest that the tree's (on my property) have two owners..But if they are 100% yours[/quote] It never occurred to me that the trees on my property (not on the borders) might not be mine - is this possible? Probable? This would also suggest that at some future time the true owner could decide to cut them down or some such - which would be a catastrophe, to me.

aquaman

One night last year in Candidasa while strolling back to my hut from the beach I had a near miss with a falling coconut, well quite a few actually. It was dark the breeze was picking up I heard palm leaves rustling and then thump a cocunut fell next to my foot. Then I heard another land then another. I picked up the pace and covered the 50 metres I had to walk quite quicKly with my hands over my head just incase. :lol: My brother worked in Western Samao 20 years ago and I remember him telling me the coconut toll was higher than the road toll there. Anyway.. Markitt I very much doubt if the trees are on your land that you don't own them but you never know the guy who use to harvest the coconuts might show up one day expecting the right to continue doing it. You're right I think if you have someone harvest them they would expect some sort of profit share arrangement. As long as it's reasonable I think it's perfectly fine to do so. I'm sure if you were to ask anyone there locally you would have lots of offers to harvest them. You could also donate them locally, you might make a friend? Do you need friends? :twisted: I don't subscribe to cutting down perfectly good trees for no reason other than a falling coconut might take you out. The trees may have been one of the things that attracted you to the land in the 1st place, it would be to me. The palm oil is a good idea too, who knows you might like your trees looking like they've got their hair in curlers with all the plastic bottles hanging off them :lol:

DCC

I also have a bunch on my land and it's pretty clear who owns them; me :) Although near the boundary, they are not on it. I'm not aware people sharing ownership of trees, but I guess that could be. FYI - keep an eye out for young palm frond thieves, I got hit hard before I established control of my land and had many fronds stripped - trees looked like sh-t for a while!

Markit

A Balinese friend and I are going to the property now and hand over the harvest to my neighbour's son to handle. He agreed with me that it should be on a shared profit basis - he suggested actually 60/40 (me 60) and also said that if I was to give it all to the neighbour then he would actually think me crazy and this might hurt MY STANDING IN THE VILLAGE. Wow, now I've said it - never had a STANDING IN MY VILLAGE before, makes one feel very important, sort of like the traffic warden or trainee policeman :lol: :lol: If I suddenly stop posting here it's just because I've been beaned by falling coconuts (almost wrote "Nutted"). Will ask that my obituary is posted for all to enjoy and possibly submit to the Darwin Prizes for consideration although it is a little late for that - biologically speaking.

Markit

Hey DCC I can see there's a whole new world opening up here. Palm frond thieves now, what next gecko rustlers, Swallow stealers, Pineapple pinchers, banana bandits... :lol: Sorry got carried away a bit. Well I've now dealt with the problem in the usual way - delegation. You can say what you like about taking things into your own hands but for my money a bit of delegation can't be beat. I have talked to the next door neighbour and he's just happier than Larry to organize removal of the offending fruits as soon as he hears officially from the previous owner that he no longer owns the land and that the land has passed to me. I guess anybody could come along and just start delegating now couldn't they? Well he will now, for the princely sum/quotient? of 40% of 800 Rupiah, remove all fruits/nuts before they become a danger and pay me to let him do it. Problem solved! (I hope :lol: )

gilbert de jong

allright Markit :) ....Guess that neighboor also keeps a watchful eye on the building materials? By the way....I almost started bringing coconuts to the karangasem-area at 8000 rupiah a piece :lol: Take care,friendly greetings....Gilbert.

kanginkauh

Hallo Markit: This time it might not be too late for my post. The last time, concerning roofing material, you said where have you been. Concerning palmtrees, here I am and now. Since my wife and I have owned +/- 200 trees of that kind for about thirty years, one can suppose that, as a European, I must have developed a special relationship with that subject by now. 1) Prices for the cnuts have never been 8000. At the most 2000 and that only at peak demand times (Lebaran) in Java for coconuts from East Bali. 8000 might be the price on a roadside stall for a young coconut. And this would be high. Yes, of course, there is a trade going on. Most find their way to the local wholesale buyer. Then big trucks bring them to Java. The city Babat has one of the prime markets. 2)Coconuts are harvested about every 65 days. If the time gets close to this term, they will start falling. The longer you wait, the falling frequency will increase. We have a yield of about 1000 to 2000 pieces (butir) each time. And you are right here again, even at a price of 1000 this is no small matter for locals. And you impress them most, if you do not just act unknowingly but know this subject. They will respect you the more for that and it is just like doing a good bargaining session instead of accepting the first price. 3)The subsubject of harvest is again a special theme. From area to area there are special terms, often governed by ADAT (customary law). We have a team come in for harvesting and they get a certain percentage.But this is a very tricky subject. 4)Concerning sap, I would think twice. Do you want every day someone climb up your trees? This is mainly done in special areas and special gardens like in Dawan in the Klungkung area for palm sugar. Tengenan area is famous for Tuak. However, that is gained from the Sagopalmtree. If you like to know more you are invited to knock at our door and I will open the door for you to our palm world. We might be closer to you than you think. Just look for IDA'S on the main street in Candi Dasa. We are presently in Bali. Joerg

Markit

Hi Joerg, thanks for your detailed reply - don't worry I had a nervous finger and it typed 1 more 0 than it should have - a price of 800 is a little closer to the reality of things. And no I don't want somebody climbing my trees every day to milk my trees lol - apparently they don't even do that here in Karangasem anyway so that's out. Am sending you a PM about meeting up. :)

Markit

If you are still with this thread then you deserve some pictures of a fantastic harvest. Coconuts ARE just Coconuts, after all - but as with everything else in life there's a hellava story to go with it if you just look a little - hope you enjoy and have the patience (and a good connection) to take part with me and my friends in very Balinese activity. http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/Eboybay/CoconutHarvest# Funny, even though the Balinese must see coconut harvests every other day they still come out to chat with each other and enjoy whatever is going on and it doesn't seem to matter how many times they've done it before. I reckon there's a lesson somewhere for us all in that, but what do I know? Coconuts - now :lol: that's what I know.

tintin

Excellent, Markit, thanks. PS. Now that you know how it's done, you can do it yourself, bukan? :lol:

BeachBule

According to Indonesian Law, when you contract for the land that is all you get. Someone else may own the coconut trees, or outbuilding, or any other improvement not stated in your contract. About two years after I first obtained my land someone came along and said the one coconut tree on my property was his. I couldn't believe it, but it was true - and I paid him a small amount of money for the tree - maybe RP 100,000. No big deal in my case, but in your case that starts to mean real money. So it is possible somebody else owns the trees. You need to find someone who understands these traditions or adat in your area to find the solution. Often plam fronds are wrapped around the tree as a sign that these are your trees. Many strange customs, but you better get to it while the issue is fresh. It may take a meeting with the Kapala Desa and other "elders" to settle the issue once and for all. Don't delay and don't be too generous. Once people get the impression that you are an easy touch, all sorts of new problems can crop up - like someone saying this was his family land and he never agreed to the sale, etc. Never ending BS.

tintin

Live & learn! :?

Larnes

Great thread Markit, enjoyed the pictures. We have some trees on our land also, although they are generally used for tuak in our area apparently. Gilbert's comments regarding the border are pertinent - I am wondering how I am going to go about building a fence/wall when the coconut trees form part of the border. Land owners are obviously much more security conscious in Karangasem though - we have nasty cactus as most of our border!! Cant wait to see the end of it. :)