BaliLife
Hi All,I won't hold any grudges is this post is nuked. I'm not 100% on what the forum rules are surrounding the discussion of politics in Indonesia. Anyhow - I'm not posting this to start a flaming session - I'd like it very much if this could develop into a thread that really looks at the challenges that face Indonesia (and Bali of course as a part of Indonesia) and what expats, who have lived outside of Indonesia believe are some potential remedies or opportunities.Some of my statements will likely contain generalizations. I make these generalizations knowing full well that there are exceptions to them.Firstly - I'll state my personal views - I'm putting them all out there (well the ones that come to mind at this moment) and welcome all the discussion (negative and positive) they bring.1. I like SBY (Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono) - I believe he's one of very few Indonesian Federal politicians that wants to see this country develop, for the benefit of Indonesians and not just for the benefit of his own pocket.2. I'm an economic centrist, and a political "slightly to the leftist".3. I think a feral street cat has just been killed by a snake outside my window, on the front porch.4. I think democracy only works when you have an educated electorate - without such, unfounded propaganda wins (until the next wave of unfounded propaganda comes up).5. Even though I like SBY, I think Singapore is one of the greatest nations in the world and Indonesia should outsource it's 'governing' of Indonesia to the Singaporean government (and so should Malaysia).6. If Indonesia was less corrupt, it would be harder for businesses to prosper - that said, a very small % of Indonesians are currently in the position to prosper.7. Subsidies need to be removed on fuel - for the long term benefit of Indonesians.8. Corporate tax rates need to be lowered in Indonesia so that corporations actually start paying tax instead of 'paying off' the tax man.9. I'm sick and tired of seeing Megawati and Wiranto on TV criticizing the current government - what did they do for Indonesians when it was their time? 10. That's all for now.What's the primer for my post? In the last 2 weeks I've noticed more than the usual amount of propaganda filling the media - I see it and I think, my god, who believes this crap? The most concerning thing about the state of Indonesia is that the low level, cheesy, ridiculous and almost comical attacks work - i.e. they resonate with many Indonesians.How can you fix a country democratically when so many of the voters are so overwhelmingly gullible and naive? No, not every Indonesian! But many.. In fact, millions upon millions. Yes Indonesia has some brilliant minds, but unfortunately they're in the minority and under the theory of a democracy, the majority beats the minority.. Truthfully, I'm more disturbed by the propaganda than of the actual state of things..None of this post is intended to offend anyone - and much of it is opinion only.Cheers,Ct
Roy
"5. Even though I like SBY, I think Singapore is one of the greatest nations in the world and Indonesia should outsource it's 'governing' of Indonesia to the Singaporean government (and so should Malaysia)."[/quote] :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: You've got to be kidding! I don't know where to begin, except to clean the spilt coffee off my keyboard which resulted when I read that! Singapore and Indonesia are like apples and oranges...thank God! The Singaporean government is there to [b]control[/b] its people. The Indonesian government is there to [b]grow[/b] its people. No offense to you if you are Singaporean, but God help RI if the day ever comes that it becomes another Singapore! The government of Singapore has been consistently rated by Transparency International as one of the least politically transparent and most corrupt governments in the world. Moreover, it is consistently criticized for electoral intimidation and freedom of speech violations. PS...Sorry to hear that the cat got tagged by the snake. Perhaps the snake was from Singapore? :P
BaliLife
You've got to be kidding! I don't know where to begin, except to clean the spilt coffee off my keyboard which resulted when I read that![/quote]I laughed my backside off when I read this.. Happy to get a response on this!Ok, I want to leave the transparancy and corruption claims til the latter part of my response.Why Singapore has an amazing Government (in my view)1. The Singaporean government are master planners. When you look at Singapore, the infrastructure (physical, technological, etc) everything seems as though it was planned 30years ago, with the flexibility included in its planning to allow for technological progression. When you look at Indonesia's infrastructure (what little exists), it seems like it wasn't planned - other than by the single entepreneur who figured out how to make a quick buck.2. Education and Healthcare - fantastic.3. Multiculturalism - all religions are embraced and all of the 3 main ethnicities of Singapore are celebrated (thanks to SBY, indonesia has recently started celebrating chinese new year, etc)4. The country (singapore) is run more efficiently than any other in the world - in fact it's run more efficiently than many of the best corporations in the world. The best gov services in the world and the best infrastructure are all made possible through a maximum marginal rate of income tax of 18% (and that's set to kick in at over $300k or thereabouts - citation needed) - and a similar corporate tax structure.Now onto the transparancy claims.I can't refute a body's rating of Singapore and I assume the fact that you've posted and referenced the body's name, ensures it's a true factual reference to their view. I personally feel, like I said, that true democracy is a privilige, not a right - and the way you earn that privilige is by having the voter base educated. The Singaporean voter base is educated, but in a tertiary sense - and yes they don't live in an absolute democracy, as we do in australia and canada. But I believe the singaporean gov to be extremely transparent and extremely clean (ie not corrupt) - so I very much disagree with that body's ratings.Finally, and this is really my main point... Even if one were to agree that Singapore is not a democracy, it's corrupt and its not transparent, WHO CARES? Singaporeans get to live in a fully developed country (one of the most developed in the world), they are surrounded by opportunity, their religious rights and freedoms are protected, their government provides for them and ensures that Singaporeans are not exploited by having workplace requirements, pension requirements, etc. Regardless of whether one believes the Sing gov to be corrupt or not - what I believe is that the gov of singapore is a responsible gov, that loves it's country - it develops policies that benefit Singapore as a whole, while preserving individual rights and a high standard of living.Has indonesia's democracy benefited indonesia? Has its standard of living risen? Has its economy improved? Are indonesians lives better than Singaporeans? My view is of course that the clear answer to these questions is a resounding NO.Ct
Roy
Gotta run now...but "I'll be back" and offer some more polite rebuttals to your points. In the mean time, here is one:You write:"3. Multiculturalism - all religions are embraced and all of the 3 main ethnicities of Singapore are celebrated (thanks to SBY, indonesia has recently started celebrating chinese new year, etc)"[/quote]Singapore has NO clue what multiculturalism means...not by a LONG shot! You can call Singapore "tri-cultural" if you want....but in no way "multicultural." Indonesia IS multicultural, and in fact as a country, Indonesia is regarded as the most culturally diverse country in the world. There are AT LEAST 400 disparate cultures in Indonesia, many of which with their own indigenous language. Want a quick cocktail of multiculturalism? Just take one of each of the following persons: Dayak, Bugis, Torajan, Javanese, Acheness, Balinese, Sasak, Amat, and Batak and you've only touched the first shelf of the bar! But guess what? They are ALL Indonesians! Cheers!
josefk
Roy I don't have time either to dispute Indonesia as the most 'multi-cultural' as I am just about to pack and 'sod off' back to England from New York......But I will be back in on Wednesday! :lol: ...and BaliLife, you are gonna get 'it' too! :lol:
josefk
...but something to chew on...and this is not my real answer either...Nigeria has 250 ethnic groups (yes less than Indonesia) but with 500 languages...So I think we need a definition of what multicultural is...
BaliLife
Roy / josefk.. I look forward to receiving a good verbal flogging :)I'm sure either way it will be a very interesting discussion!Ct
Jimbo
I first went to Singapore in 1971 and loved it. Now it is just a sterile society run by a controlling government. Give me Indonesia any day warts and all. Still you make some good points but just having returned from Kazakhstan/Sharjah I have too much to do to debate it right now.
Roy
OK, so as Caesar would say, "the die is cast" meaning this discussion is going to be fun and light hearted...which does not mean without spirit. That's good. And BTW, Jimbo, I just got back from Sin Some More (as it may still have been called on your last port of call) and I had the best time EVER in Singapore. I wholeheartedly admit that I do like Singapore...but I could never envision living there.OK, back to the multicultural thing...item 3, BaliLife, on your latest list. If you like to have fun with history...keeping in mind that re-writing it is not allowed under the rules...then if anything, Singapore should be annexed to Indonesia, as its initial roots are that it was part of the Sriwijaya Kingdom from about the 7th to late 13th century. That kingdom was largely based in Sumatra...aka, Indonesia. But OK, maybe that is just too far back to consider any longer in current context...but, none the less...it's historical fact.Aside from that ancient history, Singapore has NO history, excepting from that which is classified as modern history. Aside from Malaysian culture, there simply is NO indigenous Singaporean culture. The Chinese arrived only AFTER Raffles arrived (and against then prevailing judgment), decided to build a trade port there. That was back in 1819...and as I say, very recent, especially in terms of the history of Asia and SE Asia overall. IMHO, the idea of including multiculturalism as proof that the present day Singaporean government is "amazing" just doesn't hold any water...in fact, the glass doesn't even have a bottom.
BaliLife
Hello Gents,I knew the Singapore points would encounter much opposition on this forum. My wife holds very much the same view you've expressed - she believes Singapore is a nice place to visit but that's all. I think its a view held by many indonesians and people who are able to relate to indonesians.The funny thing is, I don't feel the Singaporean government is controlling at all. I think they are fantastic facilitators and they facilitate a very well balanced society and economy. Facilitation does of course need some basic controls but I see those few controls as being merely an effective and neccessary means of keeping sabateurs (on bb sorry so can't check spelling) at bay. One of the things I always notice about Singapore is that you rarely see police anywhere. In indonesia the police are so in your face, yet nobody pays much attention to them because everybody knows they're corrupt.Ok, so onto the multicultural points. No doubt indonesia is tasked with maintaining a certain level of unity over a large number of culture - but I disagree that doing so makes indonesia a multicultural place. Like I said, when I walk through a mall in surabaya, I'm faced with many stares - it doesn't bother me, and I know there's no malice in those stares, but outsiders are noticed. In surabaya, people from madura live in a very specific area of the city. In bali, javanese and other muslims also congregate and live in specific areas, not due to any laws, but because of the natural tendency of humans to surround themselves with likeminded people. Balinese don't generally look favourably upon javanese workers migrating to bali. The arab section of surabaya is like any other street in surabaya except 1 in 20 people are visibly of arab descent - very few maintain their own culture or language and certainly food. This assimilation is both positive and negative. The government of indonesia until recently supressed many cultures that didn't have their roots in islam - though this is changing. Most singaporeans speak at least 2 of the 3 most prominent languages (excluding english) - they sit side by side on trains and share offices. They eat each others cuisines, yet maintain their cultural heritage. Yes singapore is a young country and to its merit its distinguished itself rapidly in a developing region by becoming a modern, advanced sovereign nation.Now, its hard to strike up agreement on the above when the criteria for 'multiculturalism' varies amongst individuals observing it. So I'd like to move onto my other points. Does anyone argue that the singaporean government are master planners and master purveyers of infrastructure? They took what colonization taught them and embraced the best parts of the system and disregarded the rest while maintaining a distinct asian culture. Let's look at economic fundamentals? How can indonesia move forward? How did singapore advance its economy in such a short period of time? How is it hat with only a few hundred miles of ocean between indonesia and singapore, singapore thrives on foreign business and investment while so many international corporations still shy away from indonesia because of the absence of corporate infrastructure, corporate governance and a stable government?Is there consensus that disturbingly here in indonesia, factless propoganda is so widely embraced and so effective at causing political unrest?Ct
milan
Let me just cut you to the chase.Have you noticed the size of Indonesia and that of Singapore?There!
BaliLife
hi milan,i think that argument holds no water. i get told that often by indonesians, yet when you speak to an educated indonesian they agree that particular point is rather inconsequential.yes indonesia is larger, but they also have over 50 times the population to contribute and pay taxes, etc. china is larger than indonesia, yet it is on a better economic bath than indonesia. if indonesia wants to attribute it's problems to it's size, then start breaking it up! i am sure many states / provinces would leap at the opportunity for independence. do i think this would solve anything? absolutely not..ct
Thorsten
Beside the little" difference in size (though you state, size doesn't matter) there is another little detail not mentioned yet.Singapore is one of the most important and biggest harbours in the world, if not the biggest and most important and this concentrated on a little bit of state and that's all!Quite easy to create a great infrastructure, when you don't know where to stuff all the money -eh?This regime in Singapore is also not shy to accept investments from other, doubtful Governments, which robbed their own country before, just like this bunch of thieves in Burma!
milan
Also keep in mind that the British left a good legacy to both, Singapore and Malaysia as a system, which any other colonies never left for the countries they colonised/colonialised.
BaliLife
hi,milan, you're point highlights my point exactly - there's something special about singapore because both malaysia and singapore were left with the same by the british and look where malaysia is now - sure a few steps ahead of indonesia, but still leaps and bounds behind singapore.thorsten - indonesia would take burma's money / investments if the animals in power in burma were to offer it to them.singapore is one of the most important harbours in the world because of strategic planning. could it have been in neighboring sumatra? why not? of course it could have, but again there's very little focus on tomorrow in indonesian politics, let alone focus on 20-30 years from now. policies are reactive and usually only put in place so that some greedy bugger can cash in.great infrastructure doesn't just happen and money doesn't just pour into a country - to attract investments and to build world class infrastructure takes time, commitment, sound policies, sound planning and most importantly a desire for a government to want tomorrow's generation to have it better than today's..ct
Roy
singapore is one of the most important harbours in the world because of strategic planning.[/quote]By strategic planning, I assume you mean the vision and implementation undertaken by Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles? If you agree, then that credit falls to the English...which is exactly the case with Hong Kong. In both cases, the current status of both major ports is the result of colonialization.
BaliLife
I agree the credit falls to the British for the concept and the kick off - but the Singaporean government has embraced what they were left with by the British and progressed it incredibly since gaining independence.The Dutch did actually develop quite a lot of infrastructure in Indonesia throughout their time here - granted they did pillage from Indonesia - but whatever they left has decayed beyond usable condition. Take Surabaya for example, it was set up as one of the major trading ports of S.E. Asia - and supposedly the largest in all of the Dutch colonies. Anyone been to Surabaya? Sorry to say, it's a filthy, under-developed hole - there's nothing prosperous or pleasant about the city other than the people and seeing it out the window of an aeroplane as you depart..ct
BaliLife
responsible governance involves maintaining control and making difficult decisions that represent the interests of all, as opposed to allowing those decisions to be made in the interests of a few because of ignorance amongst voters..[url="http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/355550/1/.html"]http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/ ... 50/1/.html[/url][i]Mr Goh also touched on liberal democracy. He said as Singapore develops, he believes Singaporeans will want the country's politics to be more liberal.But Mr Goh said Singapore cannot follow the model of liberal democracy practised in some big countries which allows for unregulated public protests.He said Singapore is a small country and the whole place will come to a halt if there is a big demonstration in the city.For a large nation, the rest of the country continues producing, even if there is a demonstration in the capital.Mr Goh raised the possibility of Singapore having designated areas for people to demonstrate in what he called a managed kind of freedom.[/i]ct
