mimpimanis
[quote]Mimpi, it is probably because they are starving and will eat anything they can find on the ground.
As we would as humans eat anything if we were starving.[/quote]
I know that Chilli. When we put our offerings down in the evening there is usually a dog or two already waiting in anticipation. My post was trying to show why the balinese [b]maybe[/b] see the dogs as low / evil.
mimpimanis
...The average Balinese thinks that dogs are dirty (Balinese dogs are dirty and look pathetic), and dogs in Bali are probably the reincarnation of a bad person…
I'd still really like to know Why Is This So?
This has just reminded me that when I was first in Bali in the 80s someone told me that dogs are considered bad spirits because they eat the offerings placed on the ground for demons and spirits. Not sure how accurate that was I did a little google search and found this. Though it doesnt say the dogs are bad spirits it does bring up the fact of the dogs eating the offerings.
In the article entitled Balinese Ceremonies it is explained that there are five different types of ceremony. The offerings for each differ. There are thousands of different kinds of offering. Offerings at temple festivals are to the gods and are made of coloured rice, cakes, fruits, eggs, flowers and other natural things, placed on high platforms, never on the ground. If the ceremony is for a human being, such as a baby ceremony, the offerings are normally placed beside the person. If they are for evil spirits, however, offerings are placed on the ground, where the evil spirits dwell. Evil spirits congregate at the entrances to buildings or at crossroads, so offerings are placed there too.
Very quickly dogs come and eat offerings on the ground, but that is alright, as the essence will already have been taken by the spirits by the time the dogs get there and in any case it is appropriate for dogs to take them. Dogs are not regarded highly by the Balinese. To call someone a dog is a monstrous insult.
From
http://www.murnis.com/culture/articlebalineseofferings.htm
Kadek
[quote=Bert Vierstra]
But we first care about what and who we have time and "space" for.
[/quote]
This is exactly right and in my mind. I am not a member of Greenpeace - not because I don't value their ideologies. I prefer a softer approach through environmental education and awareness raising. Gee I worked as an environment officer - often trying to change and get support from people to care about environment even when it does not have direct human values and benefits. Anybody care to help plant some trees for some Black Throated Finches ? :D
But I must admit I am not perfect and still do things contrary to what my ideologies and how things should be. But I often find my passion dwindling when the work become just work and no real benefits were to be gained from it.
tintin
Roy's last post yesterday (Thursday), followed by Kadek's the following day, go a long way in explaining Balinese and their relationship with animals in general, and dogs in particular. IMHO, if it can be resume in one word, I would say [i]Ahimsa[/i], the avoidance of violence.
Roy
Thank you Daniel.
Bert, this surprises me:
[quote]As soon as the Balinese have good health care and little economic worries they will start loving dogs, and even whales.[/quote]
Personally I find NO correlation between “good health care and little economic worries” to the Balinese attitudes towards dogs. There are plenty of wealthy and able to afford the best health care Balinese out there whose attitude is the same as a sawah worker.
Frankly, I’m more than a little surprised with this insistence of the need for the Balinese to change. This is their island and their culture after all, and who are we to push them in any particular direction? :roll:
chilli
Roy, no one is asking the Balinese to change. No one has said that anyone has to talk or whistle or sing to a dog.
I am just trying to understand the WHY dogs are nothing, is it relgion, culture, mentallity, partly some, partly not ,etc.
You stated that you know weathly people whos attitude is the same a poorer people, so therefor i can rule out that it isnt money thats an issue.
its a discussion, not meant to insult .
Roy
[quote]If Amrozi thinks he gets plenty of virgins in heaven, your Guru thinks he doing his dog a great service if its killed for a special purpose, or people go to heaven after to sit at the right hand of whats his name, its all the same to me. Wacko Talk.[/quote]
I see that you are assimilating very well into Bali, Bert. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Far be it for me, however, to rain criticism upon another man’s religious beliefs.
As you well know, and very much unlike many other religions, the Balinese do not preach their beliefs or cultural ways, nor do they even attempt to persuade anyone else to see or believe things the way they do. For me, that’s plenty of reason to let them have all the “wacko talk” they want. How about you?
Jimbo
[quoteRW" stands for "rukun warga"...some kind of euphemism for dog meat, but also something to do with politics or politicians. I'm not sure, but I think it originally came from Sulawesi][/quote]
In Sulewesi the name for dog meat is "ErWe" or if you like RW so I think you are spot on.
Bert Vierstra
I see the Balinese struggling to get good health care, and an economic condition that would allow for that. Its actually my Balinese doctor who answered on my question about the missing health care insurance, "No Money".
I am not pushing anyone here, its the Balinese that want it.
And, an other attitude towards dogs, (or animals in general) comes to a people, not just a few individuals.
Apart from the Balinese wanting a better life, better health care, better education, you may find a few foreigners here and there filling in the gaps. They are not preaching or pushing, just aiding.
[quote=From the Future]Denpasar, Jun 12th 2036
New laws have passed to decrease the suffering of ritual slaughtered pigs for Hindu ceremonies. Every city with more than 30.000 registered Hindu believers will get a RI funded pig-friendly slaughter house, where the Hindu's, now a minority in Bali, can buy a reasonably priced, painless slaughtered pig (with a good life behind it), already separated from its blood (available in an apart package).
This will mean the end of the early morning killing (execution as some action groups have called it) of squealing pigs, held too long in too tight cages.
And it will also make an end to the political wars that have dominated the media world-wide, and it was often called "The Last Barabaric Acts in the World are on the Island of Peace"
The Head of Hindu affairs in Bali, I Wayan Bima Thompson (of foreign descent) has finally given in, and said that the culture of Bali is preserved in the spirit of its rituals and customs, not in its barbaric ways of the past.[/quote]
Roy
On another thread I discussed how I talked to our high priest about not having any dogs sacrificed at our Melaspas ceremony this coming Wednesday.
One thing I didn’t bring up then, but would like to share now, is what happens to dogs, or any animals that are sacrificed during Balinese temple ceremonies.
The Balinese believe that any animal that is sacrificed in this manner is automatically elevated to Suarga, or heaven, and thus will no longer be reincarnated as a life form, since it will have achieved the highest level possible for the spirit.
My Guru has a Kintamani dog that he has had for years, and he very affectionate towards his dog. In discussing dog sacrifice with him, I point blank asked him what he would do if he were asked to offer his dog for such a sacrifice. Without hesitation he immediately said that he would do it without reservation, believing that in fact he would be doing his dog a great service.
In a very real Balinese sense, by my intervening with the high priest over a puppy being sacrificed at our ceremony, it could be said that I’ve essentially denied that puppy immediate access to heaven.
I understand how easy it is, and how prone many western expats and visitors in Bali are, to project their western views and philosophies upon the Balinese, but personally, I think that is wrong. It’s not our job to “educate” the Balinese to our way of thinking.
On the other hand, by way of example, and to the extent the Balinese want to learn more about “our ways” then that is fine as I see it.
In my own view, the level of emotion and boarder-line self righteousness that often works its way into discussions about dogs in Bali is almost appalling. I’d love to see the same level of passion and enthusiasm for the Bali dogs voiced for helping out the impoverished, uneducated, or sick folks of Bali. Some of us need to ask ourselves just where are our priorities? That’s my opinion anyway.
Bert, thanks for the future promotion of Bima! :D
Jimbo
[quote]In my own view, the level of emotion and boarder-line self righteousness that often works its way into discussions about dogs in Bali is almost appalling. I’d love to see the same level of passion and enthusiasm for the Bali dogs voiced for helping out the impoverished, uneducated, or sick folks of Bali. Some of us need to ask ourselves just where are our priorities? That’s my opinion anyway. [/quote]
And not only dogs! As much as I will never endorse deliberate cruelty to animals I still and always will believe that the effort put into this thread never seems to happen in defence of people.
chilli
Kadek,
I just have to inject a compliment here, you come across as such a warm and gentle woman, your recollection of your childhood, i wonder how you survive in Australia !
personal question i know, dont worry, no answer is required, i just wonder about that.
sincerely, chilli
Bert Vierstra
If Amrozi thinks he gets plenty of virgins in heaven, your Guru thinks he doing his dog a great service if its killed for a special purpose, or people go to heaven after to sit at the right hand of whats his name, its all the same to me. Wacko Talk. Some of it is more acceptable wacko talk then other wacko talk. And it doesn't mean people talking "acceptable" wacko talk can still do good things in the eyes of others, or be very good citizens.
Religious inclined people are so afraid to look over their own fences. Because then they will see people doing sort of the same thing, but with a different animal, praying the sort same prayer, but to a different God, inventing the same "make-believe" excuses for horrific acts, whether its killing humans or animals. They are afraid to learn that their Holy Symbols are easily exchangeable, and therefore losing their "Holiness", and being downgraded to a human need or human psyche inspired ritual.
Here from Maneka Gandhi, an animal rights activist from India, (yes from that family, although she is referred to as estranged)
No wonder these Hindu priests just won’t give up animal sacrifice. In Kamakhya they slaughter pigeons every day , in Kalahandi it is goats and buffaloes. In Darjeeling it is the Mithun, in so many of these shady wayside “mandirs” it is chickens. Sacrifice has nothing to do with Hinduism which is the kindest gentlest religion possible with its link to all creatures of the earth. We accept the killing of chickens,goats,pigs and buffaloes. How about this :” Hindu priests butchered dogs in a Kutta cleansing ceremony performed to remove the vibrations created by the Bali bombing. Their heads were kept during the yagna ceremony. Balinese Hindus believe today's ceremony will expel evil from the island.” The only lot that need to be expelled are these fraudulent Hindus.
Hindusim stands for the ethical treatment of animals and is compatible with the Vedic teachings which had replaced the earlier pre-Vedic practice involving human sacrifice with non-human (animal and vegetables) offerings in the Vedic era. Now all animal sacrifices need to be stopped. It is a natural evolution of human consciousness for the better treatment of the environment and other creatures.The Vedas repeatedly enjoin the Hindu to take care of Creation and act responsibly.
http://www.bihartimes.com/Maneka/animalsacrifice.html
Bert Vierstra
I am afraid me just being here already has made a small change. My Balinese wife has learned to love dogs. The death of the last one made her even cry, and she is still talking about him, months after his death.
Religion is one of the most interesting and often beautiful things in life. No doubt also religions evolve and have evolved, because we need religion in one or another way, we make it fit-in with the current times (I believe :wink: )
But even religion that doesn't put their foot in the door in order to convince you, will change because of influences from "outside". If it doesn't it will become an isolated sect, and no matter how strong, it will die.
p.s. Been with Dewi to Little India (Singapore), and the Hindu temple there, now that was impressive... Specially also for Dewi...
Roy
I couldn’t agree more with your last post Bert.
We also had a puppy die recently. It was a mix between a Kintamani and a golden lab. It was bitten by a viper, and it died. The boys had named it Snowy. I guess if we lived in Maine, they would have named it Coconut.
It was traumatic for the boys, and Eri, just like Dewi, also cried.
My only argument in this whole discussion is that the change you speak of, and I agree, it is even happening now, is a change that is proactively made by the Balinese themselves, and by their own decisions…not forced by impassioned activists who feel justified by way of their own criteria or beliefs.
Eri and I were at that same temple in Singapore a few years back for a ceremony. You noted that only the priests were in any sort of "adat" and everyone else was in "street" clothes. Way too garish for my taste, and Eri's too. The Hindu of India sure do like their colors! :shock:
Take Dewi to the Erawan temple to Wishnu in Bangkok some day. While modest, Eri was most impressed with it, and spent an hour making offerings.
Kadek
Wow, I feel rather like a non-balinese after what Roy said about Eri and what Bert said about Dewi regarding their relationships with dogs. Maybe my upbringing was very different from Dewi or Eri. I always am close to animals. I grew up with dogs as pets, chicken and also cats. I don't remember not being one. I talked to them (even to my chicken), I am sad when they are injured and cried when they died and I played and I enjoyed having them around me. I still remember all of my dogs (all have died, one was killed after being hit by a car as he crossed the road on his way home from my grandmother's place). There were so many happy memories of my childhood that were because of my interaction with these animals. I often have to hide or tricked my dogs into the kitchen before I can go out by myself - they were always following me everywhere.
So my interest or love of animals haven't just come from being in Australia. I remembered when I first arrived here, my uncle and aunt were no longer wanting any pets. But I did and always joke that I would get a dog. But this was not to be due to cost etc. But then one day a stray Russian Blue cat came into the yard. I talked to it and it was clearly suffering from hunger. I started to give it food and water. But was not allowed to adopt it. Everyday, I would call it and give it food and after a week or so, I decided that I would take it inside the house. Perhaps the cat knew my uncle and aunt didn't want it, and it chose to hide under my bed. Anyway, Smokey was then happily became our cat and she only died last year. Not long after Smokey died, another stray cat came and this time it was also adopted by my aunt. Me on the other hand, having moved out of my uncle and aunt's place into my own house, I also wanted to have a pet. I like dog more than cat, but decided that if I was to get dog I would have to get two so that they will have company when I am out all day at work and after considering that my fenced back yard is too small and my work would allow me to spend enough time with it, I decided not to choose dogs but instead adopted a cat from the RSPCA.
I am now wondering myself what was different in my upbringing that caused me to love animals. I come from a normal middle class family and nothing special that I could think of that would be different from other average Balinese. I also observed my family not being so antagonist about dogs. Although my parents weren't 'in love' with my pets. They were always supportive and didn't think that my behaviours were odd.
hmm......
But I wouldn't change it though.
Cheers
Kadek
P.S I also don't like animal sacrifice. And I think I have said enough about dogs now. Back to talking about people and other topics - maybe child poverty :idea:
Sanurian
[quote]...As much as I will never endorse deliberate cruelty to animals I still and always will believe that the effort put into this thread never seems to happen in defence of people...[/quote]
[b]Jimbo[/b]...this thread is [i]supposed[/i] to be about Bali dogs, not people.
Some of us also try to do what we can to alleviate human poverty around the island, attempt to empower locals so they don't just feel on the receiving end of "charity", in various ways. Monetary donations to existing NGOs, for example. Promoting awareness of of such groups [i]via[/i] the many other Bali-related internet forums, on-line Indonesian newspapers, etc.
Now that you mention it, a thread specifically dedicated to such issues and programmes is way over due. Even if only to collect web addresses of groups tackling poverty, education, orphans, health issues, pollution, physically and mentally disabled people, water shortages, school drop-outs, unplanned pregnancies, sex workers, and all the rest.
And regarding "[i]ErWe[/i]". That's how Indonesians pronounce "[i]RW[/i]".
:wink:
Roy
Kadek, it shouldn’t surprise you that your upbringing in Bali as a child was somewhat different than my wife’s upbringing.
At the time you were both children…I’ll say, the mid to late 70’s…to avoid any flying kris…the influence of the old caste system in so far as educational opportunities, and choices of life style, were just beginning to be completely eradicated in Bali. Your generation of Balinese are, in many ways, more free of predisposed ideas of who you should be, or can be, based only on your “birth right.” These days, caste has little, if anything to do with education, wealth, business success, or even political success.
As you know, my wife is Satria. You are of another, and higher caste, but just so anyone reading this becomes confused, when you met my wife, and she met you, it was on terms of which caste was no longer important. I know you agree with this.
That being said, there is NO doubt in my mind that your upbringing, partially because of your caste, your family, was more privileged with knowledge that is not commonplace among the Satria caste. If I recall correctly, it was either your father, or grandfather, or maybe both, who were Balians. You and I both know fully well that the knowledge of your ancestors, because of their caste, was far ahead of my wife’s ancestors, because of their caste. That is plain historical fact.
So, why am I off on this? It’s simple…
[quote]“I come from a normal middle class family and nothing special that I could think of that would be different from other average Balinese. I also observed my family not being so antagonist about dogs. Although my parents weren't 'in love' with my pets. They were always supportive and didn't think that my behaviours were odd.”[/quote]
Ma’af, but the fact is, you don’t come from a “normal middle class family” and I have no doubts that your grandparents would heartily agree with me. Obviously, this is not a criticism, rather it is just an acknowledgement of the truth, and with respect. While it is true that these days, the caste system in Bali is almost unrecognizable, at the same time, its centuries of existence still impacts Balinese thinking, ideologies, and way of life.
In my view, the Balinese culture is both equally simple and complex. What most bule learn about Bali is seemingly predetermined, and for certain, it takes a lot of years of intense living amongst the Balinese before any insights beyond those that can be read in any travel guide are absorbed. The common sense inherent in that statement is the simple reality of the truth. That truth is that while the Balinese are inherently very modest, they are also very careful about with whom they discuss their deepest essence. More to the point, they are intensely committed to their culture, and their beliefs.
On a more personal note Kadek, I am immensely grateful that you are continuing to contribute to this forum. Your insights, which are uniquely Balinese, are always expressed within a mastery of the English language. Without you, this forum would languish, and lose too much of its credibility.
mimpimanis
[quote]this thread is supposed to be about Bali dogs, not people[/quote]
Yes. and just because many people have an affinity to or want to help they should not be put down. Caring for dogs does not preclude someone for caring about other issues. I have several causes I support but the dog issue in Bali is one that is very much "in the face" of most visitors. Many other causes are not.
I am saddened today at the not so mysterious disapperance of one of our local dogs. A lovely natured dog that played with my son and the other children here on a daily basis till she got in such bad state we were worried to continue. Owned by the people living infront of us, who only stay here one or two nights a week. Me and another neighbour have been feeding her but she has been getting into worse and worse condition, sores, bald patches, never mind the puppies she had at about 7/8 months old.
Yesterday I saw the owner tie her to his motorbike with a metal chain & voiced my concerns to Iluh that she was being thrown away. ( as they did with her puppies) Iluh liked to think she was off to the vet. But she isnt back yet and I doubt very much someone who cant be bothered to feed their dog or make sure it has water would take it to the vet. Infact I know they were already annoyed with interference from me and my neighbour in feeding it.
But just because I care what happened to this dog doesnt mean I dont care what happens elsewhere to children and people......but as sanurian said this thread is about dogs.
mimpimanis
[quote]Balinese are the ones most often being “put down” because their culturally based attitudes towards dogs varies so significantly from our western attitudes.
[/quote]
I understand their indifference to dogs and when I spoke about my neighbour maybe I should point out they are chinese Indonesians rather than Balinese.
[quote] donating money to those NGO’s[/quote]
I have done. :D
