mimpimanis
Thanks Balihi
Not sure if you mean Janji or Marty though. You can't really see Marty so here is a picture I just uploaded of him today.
Getting back to bali dogs though, is it any wonder that so many of them are in poor condition. Janji is well fed, cared for & vaccinated but still got very sick despite many trips to the vet before a final diagnosis and I have no doubt he would have died from the infection had it not been treated. I can afford to have him treated in the vets but many Balinese can not.
Jimbo
[quote]I can afford to have him treated in the vets but many Balinese can not.[/quote]
And that might well be a reason why they care so little.
mimpimanis
[quote]And that might well be a reason why they care so little[/quote]
Ummm, that was my point Jimbo....
chilli
LOL, (Jimbo) :lol:
mimpi, what a gorgeous little boy your son is..
How is your dog doing now ?
and regarding taking care of dogs in Bali (vet, feeding expenses etc.)
its more about a feeling for them, little things like having water in a bucket for them to drink,dogs need access to drinking water all the time (especially in such a hot climate, they are all panting away and severly dehydrated ) these are actions which cost nothing but its about being thoughtful towards them as living creatures, I beleive this is the key Mimpi.
Sanurian
[quote]...I can afford to have him treated in the vets but many Balinese can not...[/quote]
[b]Jimbo[/b] suggests:
[quote]...And that might well be a reason why they care so little...[/quote]
In [i]some[/i] cases, for sure. In many others, something else is going on. Exactly what I'm unclear about, but I have some theories. One has to dig much deeper into the Balinese psyche and the practical manifestations of Balinese Hinduism, to even begin to appreciate the current reality.
Oh, that it were so easy to wave away a problem like this by simply blaming it on a lack of money. It's [i]part[/i] of the problem, no doubt, but not the full story.
Wealthy groups promoting Bali internationally as a first-class tourist destination [i]should[/i], in my view, pay some more attention to fixing one image of Bali as a place where dogs suffer needlessly on a daily basis. Not only dogs, I might add.
The quality of vets here is similar to the quality of many normal "doctors". All happy enough to take money for sub-standard "services". The last dog we had that died had the best veterinary care we could find. Money was not an issue. He still died.
I still think part of the reason was basic incompetence. "Simple" as that.
:oops:
chilli
[quote=Roy]
Any westerner that has lived with dogs knows how much they enjoy being talked to. They pick up on our tone, and even our words.
Try talking to a Bali street dog. Try whistling to a Bali street dog. The result is always the same. They are confused, and so totally baffled that they eventually walk away.
[/quote]
exactly, this is because their life force has disconnected from their physical bodies, its like they are catatonic or autistic. neglect is also a form of abuse. if you neglect a child it is abusive to do so, right ?
Roy
Phil, you hit the nail on the head. I agree, it is not always about the money.
As you surmise, it is entirely something else, and it has everything to do with the Balinese “attitude” (for lack of a better word) about life forms on this planet.
But, I have noticed things in my own village that I would have never seen ten years ago…like a Balinese petting his dog…showing affection, and sometimes even talking to the dogs.
Any westerner that has lived with dogs knows how much they enjoy being talked to. They pick up on our tone, and even our words.
Try talking to a Bali street dog. Try whistling to a Bali street dog. The result is always the same. They are confused, and so totally baffled that they eventually walk away.
Nice post Phil. I enjoyed reading your insight.
Roy
I think for the Balinese it’s more ambivalence or disinterest than neglect or abuse.
But, as I said, personally I’ve been noticing changes in Balinese attitudes towards dogs over the past years. While things here are far from what we might be used to in the West, the divide is shrinking.
Sanurian
[quote]...What would these theories of Balinese psyche be Sanurian? As a Balinese I certainly would like to know and perhaps with this insight and it being shared will help the Balinese see the light...[/quote]
You being a Balinese, [b]Kadek[/b]...perhaps [i]you[/i] might like to enlighten [i]us[/i] about Bali's "mysterious" ways.
I am simply a [i]"Bule Age"[/i]. Remember? I know sweet FA...mind you, some of my Balinese neighbours' could share that dubious distinction as well.
Too tired to tango, right now. Other things to do.
:shock:
Kadek
[quote=Sanurian]
In [i]some[/i] cases, for sure. In many others, something else is going on. Exactly what I'm unclear about, but I have some theories. One has to dig much deeper into the Balinese psyche and the practical manifestations of Balinese Hinduism, to even begin to appreciate the current reality.
Oh, that it were so easy to wave away a problem like this by simply blaming it on a lack of money. It's [i]part[/i] of the problem, no doubt, but not the full story. [/quote]
What would these theories of Balinese psyche be Sanurian? As a Balinese I certainly would like to know and perhaps with this insight and it being shared will help the Balinese see the light :idea: I am sure as a retired psychologist your theories would be very sound and scientifically based! Can't really trust 'incompetence' Balinese to come up with such grand idea. Perhaps a comparative study is a good idea, as I heard even in dog loving Australia where dogs and cats are part of the family, it still manages to abandon close to 200,000 dogs a year (ending up in RSPCA and other dog shelters as well as Council's pounds). and even surprising to me is that in 50 percent of cases these dogs ended being put down and killed if not re-home. I wonder if the dog loving Australians would be so happy to learn about this figure. It is a surprise cause I don't see any stray dogs here, only the occasional lost ones. I would be in interested how the study explain the different psyche between Balinese and Australians.
[quote] Wealthy groups promoting Bali internationally as a first-class tourist destination [i]should[/i], in my view, pay some more attention to fixing one image of Bali as a place where dogs suffer needlessly on a daily basis. Not only dogs, I might add.[/quote]
I agree!
chilli
[quote=Roy]Phil, you hit the nail on the head. I agree, it is not always about the money.
As you surmise, it is entirely something else, and it has everything to do with the Balinese “attitude” (for lack of a better word) about life forms on this planet.
[/quote]
okay , this is where i feel like im out of step with the rest of the world.
"Life forms on this planet", okay, isnt Hindu about love for life forms, the sun, the moon, the turtles, the offerings, etc. Why are many hindus vegetarians for example ? Indian HIndu versus Balinese?
All that i am trying to say is that it isnt always about money, its about (yes), attitude as you say Roy.
Kadek, please dont become offended or over sensitive about this subject. It is difficult to interpret over a white screen how something is said/written here. I just want to be sure that you understand that i am not offending Balinese, or comparing them to another country (as you mentioned the abandoned dogs in australia) i agree.
But is observing the Balinese and dogs which is curious to me, how the people cant see that the dogs are SUFFERING and totally ignore it. ?
i would love to explore this pshyche, i would love to further explore Hinduism.
speaking from open heart.
chilli
mimpimanis
[quote]The quality of vets here is similar to the quality of many normal "doctors". All happy enough to take money for sub-standard "services". [/quote]
Although Janji's infection was treated and has gone during his stay at the vets I have to say I am less than happy about the conditions he was kept in. I was told he would be let out of his "cage" to exercise and go to the toilet but this was obviously not the case as his blanket was full of urine & faeces stains. His paws and lower body were stained yellow where he had obviously been laying in urine and he absolutely stank. When I dropped him, along with his blanket & toys I was told to take his brush home, that they had their own brushes.... but I dont know how often they bothered as I had to cut about 20 huge clumps of matted fur off him yesterday. Im just glad we had already had his coat cut quite short or it would have been even worse.
I should have wondered, when I went to visit him, why I had to wait 20 minutes before I was allowed through!
But having said all that I will continue to go back there for his weekly visits till we sort out the demodex.
Bert Vierstra
Western point of view, Balinese point of view.
We humans are basically the same. We care. For each other and for our environment.
But we first care about what and who we have time and "space" for.
How many Balinese are a member of Greenpeace? Right.
How many Balinese want to save the whales, or care about this rare cockatoo found in the jungle? Right.
Does that make the Balinese bad people? No.
Nobody needs to find a cultural excuse for the many dogs in Bali, that are treated bad or die on the roads every day.
As soon as the Balinese have good health care and little economic worries they will start loving dogs, and even whales.
But until then.....
Roy
Chilli, I can only relay what I’ve learned from my wife, her family and my Guru.
First of all, comparing Hinduism in India to Balinese Hinduism is generally not a good road to take as there are many variations to say the least. Even within India there are various forms of Hinduism and in Bali, there are variations as well.
But yes, I agree that in Bali, the custom here is surely to respect all forms of life. However, that respect does not mean interaction. As reincarnation plays a central role in the Balinese cycle of life and death, there is a sort of caste (for lack of a better word) system in place regarding life forms. For example, a Balinese might be inclined to think that talking to a dog is even more ridiculous than talking to a monkey, which has a higher level on the reincarnation ladder, not to mention the association to Hanuman. But, talking to a monkey would also likely be viewed as at least an odd thing to do.
Hinduism in Bali certainly has nothing to do with “love” for life forms, nor the moon or sun for that matter. Love has nothing to do with it. Incidentally, the Balinese language has no word for love, although in Bahasa Indonesia, the word cinta can be worked into Balinese.
As westerners, we include very strong affection within the meaning of love. For the Balinese, that level of affection is limited to an expression with other human beings. In other words, one would be hard pressed to find a Balinese who would say, “I love my dog.”
For the Balinese, their relationships with animals is more along the lines of respect and the understanding that we all share the same environment, each with a right to live within that environment.
Any animal that becomes a danger, or poses a threat to another human is killed without hesitation…snakes, rats, scorpions, a vicious dog…whatever. But, at the same time, one would be hard pressed to find most Balinese engaging in mindless acts of violence or physically abusing an animal for some form of sadistic pleasure. At least, that is my experience and I’ve never seen a dog beaten silly here, or kicked because it is in the way, or as a convenient venting of frustration. Frankly, I’ve experienced far more wanton and outright cruelty to animals in the US than ever here in Bali.
This sort of leads me to Kadek’s comments, which I understand completely. Her frustration with constant complaints about how the Balinese “treat” their dogs is understandably incongruous because for the most part, the Balinese simply don’t “treat” their dogs at all…rather, they are left to live as they view dogs should…which is as dogs, and not as companions given to us by the Gods for our pleasure.
Anyway, this is a stab at your question. It may well be that I’ve created more confusion than understanding, but that’s life in general in Bali anyway! :lol: :lol: :lol:
chilli
Thankyou, Roy, Kadek, you have helped me to understand more.
i repeat, I am not putting down the balinese.(dont worry Kadek there is a lot i could say about some humans, be they australians, americans, english, italians too,) i am just learning about the reality of Bali.
regards, chilli
Kadek
Thanks for that post Roy.
My response is that perhaps it is just because the majority? of Balinese are not so crazy about dogs as the majority of people in the west. The values and standards are different. There is a reserve situation in there. Where in the west there is a large proportion of people who do care about dogs and a small proportion of people who don’t. In Bali a large proportion of the people don’t view dogs as companions only as animals, which provided minimal form of service to the people (guard dogs for example) and only a small proportion of people who do want dogs as pet.
I agree that looking at the issue from a Western point of view, there is a general lack of care for dogs in Bali. However you must see this from the point of view that there are many different levels of reasoning behind this in Bali. Different people would have different reasons. But maybe the following are somewhat true?:
1. Dogs are animals and treated as animals and not companions or pets
2. Many people don’t have the money to spend on dogs or even if they do, they don’t feel the need of dogs justify the expenditure for reason number 1.
3. People are reluctant to be involved and take responsibility for other people’s problems. The street dogs problem is seen as a problem of the owners of the dogs. Abandoned dogs unfortunately stay on the streets because there is no authority and service that take care of them like they exist in the west. But with a lack of interest from people, there will be n o push for government to act. So in here, outside pressure is more effective to see something happening.
4. Many people are fearful of dogs and so at best viewed them as slightly domesticated animals. They are tolerated, but people don’t want anything to do with them.
5. Chilli questioned Hinduism and why when the belief teaches respect for life (of all creatures) that the people of Bali care so little about dogs? Well indeed as far as I understand, Hinduism promote that all life forms have the right to exist and should be respected. The teaching of Ahimsa (no killing) is responsible for why many Hindus are vegetarian or like the Jainism even killing of plants is a sin. As Roy said, this belief in many cases does not translate to love of animals. Animals for the majority of people are still animals, not some kind of substitute companions or children to be treated as such.
Please don’t take this as an insight that holds true, it is but my rambling and frustration.
Btw, why I sometime mentioned things from Australia is because I live here and I observed things and behaviour here and I can compare. You guys here in the forum are mainly coming from the west with western values and standards. When you come to Bali and or live there, you also bring these values and use them to judge and compare the happenings over there. Some may see this is seeking an excuse. That is not what I am about.
Chilli, I try hard not to be oversensitive on this issue. But sometime, it is amazing how much effort and time is dedicated to this issue here only because from a Western point of view, this is important. I understand this is an expat forum. Then the Balinese as a whole are put under the microscope and often labelled uncaring, incompetence and downright cruel. This I find sometime is not fair. There are not many Balinese here to offer a differing point of view and I do a poor job trying to convey a Balinese perspective here. Of course, there is a problem with street dogs and I don’t deny this. But this should also not translate to character assassinations of the whole of Balinese and more so to question the inherent psyche and moral integrity of Balinese.
Every body is influenced by the culture and values they grow up in. Dogs are not universally seen as companion animals. In some places, they are seen as food source and are bred and killed for their meat just like cattle, sheep, goat or chicken. So are these people morally wrong in doing so just because one society considers dogs on par with human?
Regards
Kadek
Kadek
Sanurian,
I think the story of Yudhisthira and his dog is a moral story to give example of how nobel a person can be. However, for many people this is too high a moral guideline to follow or even achieve. The same as the many moral guidelines set out in the Ramayana, Mahabrata, Bhagavad Gita etc..
For a start, average Balinese may not necessarily understand the whole stories and the implications to their own situation.
Sorry, I cannot provide an exact answer as to "Why it is so?" and I don't consider myself well verse in these philosophical and theological principles and how people should follow them in real life.
Regards,
Kadek
chilli
Mimpi, it is probably because they are starving and will eat anything they can find on the ground.
As we would as humans eat anything if we were starving.
Karma, isnt Karma the law of cause and effect ?
please can someone educate me.
chilli
and YES, BERT as usual you are brilliant, you win the diplomacy award in my eyes.
Your a true mediator 8)
Sanurian
[quote]...This sort of leads me to Kadek’s comments, which I understand completely. Her frustration with constant complaints about how the Balinese “treat” their dogs is understandably incongruous because for the most part, the Balinese simply don’t “treat” their dogs at all…rather, they are left to live as they view dogs should…which is as dogs, and not as companions given to us by the Gods for our pleasure...[/quote]
I realise you've been giving some thought to this, [b]Roy[/b], and whilst your comments are very helpful, this business of Balinese letting "dogs to live as they should" still bothers me. There are more "stray" dogs than ever here, (about 1,000,000). Bali is a relatively small island. Some of these dogs pose potential health risks.
Studies conducted by the Veterinary Department at Udayana University in 2007 found some dogs, (and cats), were infected with the avian flu virus. Thankfully, there is no irrefutable evidence to date which shows this virus can jump from birds, chickens, dogs, cats, etc, to humans. It might be a giant disaster in progress, (kind of "unseen", if you like).
I read a recent article in [i]The Jakarta Post[/i] only yesterday that reported dogs in Bali, particularly in Denpasar, don't have rabies. In the same breath, so to speak, educational kits were being distributed on how to deal with rabies. That's comforting to know.
No matter what one's cultural background is, the huge Bali dog population has to be addressed by somebody, hopefully soon, and preferably by Balinese themselves. After all, no matter what their religious tenets are, their "in-action" hasn't helped matters at all. How many "stray" dogs will Bali have by the end of next year? Two million, three million?
Currently, efforts to control the dog population are being carried out by a few NGOs and concerned individuals. The government's role, (through the Department of Health of Bali Province), is quite limited and it has not allocated any money to handle the problem.
Apart from any notions of "morality", "humanity", hundreds of thousands of diseased dogs roaming around do little for Bali's "international image" as a prime tourist destination. They're an eye-sore in anybody's book, except, it seems, for Balinese.
[quote]...Every body is influenced by the culture and values they grow up in. Dogs are not universally seen as companion animals. In some places, they are seen as food source and are bred and killed for their meat just like cattle, sheep, goat or chicken. So are these people morally wrong in doing so just because one society considers dogs on par with human?...[/quote]
Well, [b]Kadek[/b], you're right there, sort of.
However, the dogs killed in Bali for food are not bred for that purpose...more often stolen off streets and wind up in [i]warungs[/i] with the "[b]RW[/b]" sign, especially in Denpasar. I believe "[i]RW[/i]" stands for "[i]rukun warga[/i]"...some kind of euphemism for dog meat, but also something to do with politics or politicians. I'm not sure, but I think it originally came from Sulawesi. Most Balinese I know understand it.
This next bit I found interesting. I forget which website I got it from. (If not, I'd cite the exact reference.) Just thought it has some peculiar relevance:
[quote]...Dogs play a role in many different aspects of Balinese life. An intimate connection between people and dogs has its roots initihasa, traditional Hindu literature. One of the most important of itihasa is the Mahabharata. The last part of this epic relates the story of Yudhisthira, the eldest of the five Pandava brothers, at the end of his journey to heaven.
At the peak of Mount Meru, Yudhisthira met Indra, the king of the gods. Indra refused to take Yudhisthira to heaven because he insisted on bringing along a stray dog. This dog had been a faithful companion to Yudhisthira throughout his long journey.
When Yudhisthira declined to proceed without his dog, it transformed itself into the god Dharma, Yudhisthira's father, who had been testing him. Many Balinese keep dogs as companions because of the legend of Yudhisthira...[/quote]
Another one, far less "poetic":
[quote]...The average Balinese thinks that dogs are dirty (Balinese dogs are dirty and look pathetic), and dogs in Bali are probably the reincarnation of a bad person…[/quote]
I'd still really like to know [b]Why Is This So[/b]?
I hope these ramblings help all of us towards a better understanding.
Oh...and I just read [b]Bert's[/b] taken on this stuff. Minimalist, like always, but right on the number, as usual.
:cry:
