Bert Vierstra
You may have heard about Fitna, a movie by a Dutch politician "Geert Wilders". It has been in the news a lot in the Netherlands since its announcement months ago.The movie : [url="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783"]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783[/url] and various versions are available on Youtube as well.Because the movie is considered an insult to Muslims I[b]ndonesia has now blocked Youtube[/b].Read about Fitna : [url="http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=fitna&btnG=Search+News"]http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=w ... earch+News[/url]
froggy
Interesting video, the can of worms has been opened, This guy must really like (bad)attention to himself! So, why are the immigration laws so simple there, seems to be the problem everywhere nowdays, too many immigrants....They form countries in countries, a subculture of shops, communities,housing set with their rules and beliefs .....SCARY :shock:
Pa_Yan
Wilders is a Nazi. He's not a respected politician in the Netherlands. He doesn't represent the majority in the Netherlands. There are extreme right winged parties in most countries, and he's the Dutch disgrace. There's no point discussing the point he is making, even when he's partly right. He's simply stating that when you're a Muslim you are the from the wrong religion. There's no way you can convince him or other Nazis that they are wrong. He doesn't offer any solutions, but only tells us that the Muslims are wrong and that we should fight them. It's an insult for all moderate Muslims.
Markit
Good film and very thought provoking, if not terribly objective. But then rapidly advancing immigration is causing angst and worry all over the western world - many places much worse than Holland. In the UK we have many, many more Muslims from all over the old colonial countries who have come to live in the UK searching for a better life than they had in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Iraq, basically everywhere where Islam is followed. And who can blame them? I've always found it interesting that almost every western country has the same problems of integration, in finding a peaceful way to fit the many and various different races and religions of the world together in one place, with one remarkable exception - America. Somehow America manages to attract and assimilate everybody, they are all glad to become Americans and try to take up the "American Way of LIfe" (and loose theirs) with an almost obscene haste. There are Turks in Germany and Pakistanis in England in the second and third generations that speak almost no English! (Of course there are Americans that you can say the same about :wink: ) But largely the US melting pot has managed to unite the races of the world together under one flag, possibly called "Avarice" but nevertheless, united. Funny isn't it that their brothers left at home call it "The Great Satan" - where is the mother-ship when you need one???
Roy
Markit, your opinion of the assimilation by foreign immigrants into US culture is not all that accurate. In virtually all of the major US cities, immigrants tend to live in ethnic neighborhoods of their own kind, and English is not required to get a green card. Just hail a cab in New York City and you would learn that truth very quickly. More than 35% of the current population in NYC is foreign born. Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami...all have similar situations. The concept of the US as a great melting pot went out when Ellis Island was closed. Now, it is just a collective pot, and with much the same problems as experienced in London or Amsterdam.
froggy
Roys right, and my previous post did not exclude the U.S,,, Here in Texas it is very easy to find yourself in a foreign country!!! I suppose the Balanise feel the same also, buleville's popping up all over,,, I took my son to the emergency room awhile back and I was the only english speaking person in there, I was #42 in line !!!! I doubt any were even citizens, needless to say I bitched and complained my way up the ladder, He really needed to be seen right then, And I'll be damed if I was going to wait... He's fine....
Sanurian
My curiosity got the better of me last night, so I found a copy of [i]Fitna[/i] on the net, downloaded and watched it with my wife (who's religion is Muslim). Neither of us were particularly impressed nor "outraged", as such. A "movie" it is not. It's 16+ minutes of one guy's prejudices regarding the Islamic world and its religion. Heavily biased and totally negative. A "hate-flick", if you will. I found it boring and tasteless. It beats me why it's receiving world-wide attention. I feel that the Indonesian government's attempt to get ISPs to voluntarily block websites like Youtube, MySpace, etc, a gross over-reaction. I had no difficulty finding and downloading it from other sources. Drawing attention to this very flawed and rather amateurish "production" only makes more people want to see what the fuss is about. (Like me.)I read a Turkish person's take on it on some blog connected to the [i]Turkish Daily News[/i] (?). His perception was calm, dignified and balanced. Along the lines of there are people who want to malign Islam and damage its image, for reasons best known to themselves. Islamic governments should take these "opportunities" to constructively address any portrayed poor images of Islamic life, rather than add fuel to the fire by attempting Draconian measures, (which won't and don't work). Such attempts only give the impression that current Islamic "thinking" is not a part of the 21st century and is stuck in the Middle Ages.[b]Pa-Yan[/b] said:...He's simply stating that when you're a Muslim you are the from the wrong religion...[/quote]There is one section in the video which shows a Muslim fanatic "leader" screaming that the Muslim religion is far more powerful and relevant than Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and every other body of religious thought that came before it. His "solution"? Kill all the infidels! I'm not sure where in the [i]Quran[/i] it says that.And [b]Markit[/b] comments:...Good film and very thought provoking, if not terribly objective...[/quote]I can't see how anybody would regard this "film" as "good". For sure, it's [i]some[/i] food for thought.The Dutch "Neo-Nazi", or whatever he is, has simply added to an already abundant pool of ignorance and intolerance in the world. I wonder how he sleeps at night? :mrgreen:
Markit
Can I respectfully recommend an article from the Economist (Nelson Mandela's only permitted reading material during his solitary confinement on Robin Island). This may shed some light...[url]http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displayStory.cfm?story_id=10286121[/url]Unfortunately I'm sure many of you won't let a small thing like a [b]fact[/b] get in the way of all those NeoCon [i]"ideas"[/i]. Just hail a cab in New York City and you would learn that truth very quickly. More than 35% of the current population in NYC is foreign born. Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami...all have similar situations. [/quote]Any city that can boast an immigrant population of "More than 35%" and is not going up in flames or open war is a thriving success in my books!I, personally, think it wonderful when the different peoples try and maintain their own ways of life and cultural traditions when in the new country as it makes for an interesting and colorful society. I have best heard it summed up in the phrase "apart together". The problem in most of Europe is that it is being practiced as "together apart". America has always lead in being able to sell its aspirational values, what does that mean? The American Dream, rags to riches, even you too, can get rich in this fair and sunny country, etc. etc. [i]For Christs Sake[/i] it has "Happiness" written into the constitution.Sanurian, the difference between prejudice and what you are seeing in that "film" (low budget multimedia production with funding from some kids allowance - but hey, you do what you can) is that many here in Europe are feeling that their culture is being supplanted, [i]with the political support of their own government[/i], by a foreign group of values and religions that are intrinsically other than their own and, in many cases, openly hostile. There are many parts of England (you know, where the language comes from) where you really and truly cannot hear English spoken - at all, for hours - yes, really. Talking about integration - the Aussies haven't even managed to integrate the people that the place first belonged to, for Christs sake! (For those geographically challenged Americans out there, I mean the Aborigines).As to your reference to the Turks, I couldn't agree more - they are without doubt the most "civilized" face of Islam that there could be and I personally would welcome them into the EU with open arms. But there is Germany in the equation too and they won't think of it, if for no other reason than that they just spent Billions on paying the old "Gastearbeiteren" to go back to Turkey during the last recession not to have them all now come back with the opening of the borders. And to how he sleeps at night? I'm sure, not very well and when he is awake it probably isn't much fun to be him. Why? Well, the last Dutchman that dared to say anything remotely against Islam was butchered on an open street by a "believer". Theo Van Gogh - He shot him eight times with an HS 2000 handgun, and Van Gogh died on the spot. Bouyeri then cut Van Gogh's throat, nearly decapitating him, and stabbed him in the chest. Two knives were left implanted in his torso, one attaching a five-page note to his body. The note threatened Western governments, Jews and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who went into hiding). The note also contained references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)[/url] )Lets just try our best to all get on together cause we aint going to be here long and it's going to be dark for a very, very long time.
Roy
"For Christs Sake it has "Happiness" written into the constitution."[/quote]Good grief Markit, please leave American history alone. The phrase you are citing is, "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It comes from the Declaration of Independence, NOT the Constitution and it describes the inalienable rights of man. Thomas Jefferson was actually paraphrasing the words of John Locke (ever hear of him?), the [b]English[/b] philosopher who died in 1704 as offered by George Mason in the Virginia Declaration of Rights dated May 15, 1776. "Talking about integration - the Aussies haven't even managed to integrate the people that the place first belonged to, for Christs sake! (For those geographically challenged Americans out there, I mean the Aborigines)."[/quote]And we in the US did a great job of integrating the Native Americans...didn't we? :P Can you say "reservation?" :lol: Of course now, most of them have a stake in one casino or another...which I guess is kharma. I had hoped that your world views would be somewhat more refined and developed than the views you have previously expressed about Bali...but I clearly see that I was wrong. For your own good, should you decide to stop by Nuri's during your upcoming visit to Bali, I suggest that you keep your thoughts to yourself.
Sanurian
[b]Markit[/b]I have both little idea and no particular desire to understand what the hell you're talking about. This is a forum concerned with expats living in Bali. And yes, before you try to shoot me down with some more of your erudition, ([i]in the Queen's English[/i]), it's a bit short on expats living here actually contributing much. On the other hand, it seems to have attracted several quite verbose arm-chair "experts".My post regarding [i]Fitna[/i] was my own impression. Even though the island of Bali is predominantly Hindu, there are many pockets of Muslim people living here. "Islamic issues" [b]do[/b] have some relevance here because of the nation as a whole.Your mentioning Theo van Gough, Nelson Mandela, etc, means very little to me in the context of my life here. ...As to your reference to the Turks, I couldn't agree more...[/quote]I said nothing about Turkish people. I mentioned [b]one[/b] who has an intelligent opinion regarding the bullshit that surrounds this [i]Fitna[/i] crap. End of story.To reiterate something from me to you previously...I hope you find [i]something[/i] here on Bali worth the effort. (When you get here.) And like Roy said, in mixed company maybe you'd be wise to keep your thoughts to yourself. :idea:
Jimbo
And like Roy said, in mixed company maybe you'd be wise to keep your thoughts to yourself.[/quote]Roy and Sanurian agreeing to gang up on poor old Markit....well in agreement anyhow :D I did notice the same advice for Markit not to discuss his ideas with others in Bali. Seems like a very parochial viewpoint to me. Whats the matter guys not like you to suppress honest debate and different points of view?.......or is it.in the past points of view from both of you discussed within a group in any bar in the world would have elicited a few brawls I am sure. Live and let live I say as I awaite your ire :D
froggy
Ha, good one Jimbo... Nothing wrong with a little brawl.... You just have try to remember who you have to apologize to the next day! Geez.. Poor Brian is going to have his hands full, he should teach wa. (sp?) to sick balls.... :shock: (Btw. Brian runs Nuries and wa is his scruffy jack russle dog..) for those who dont know...
Roy
I did notice the same advice for Markit not to discuss his ideas with others in Bali. Seems like a very parochial viewpoint to me. Whats the matter guys not like you to suppress honest debate and different points of view?.......or is it.[/quote]Indeed, Phil and I make a great "tag team" don't we! :D Jimbo, inherent in an "honest debate" is the presumption that the participants have a basis beyond biased personal opinion from which to participate in the debate. Markit likes to call this, "[b]facts[/b]." The point here is simple, he doesn't have any insofar as Bali, or the United States is concerned. To be honest, I can have a much more enjoyable and insightful conversion with our oldest son Bima, who is in the second grade. Maybe over in England they should start up a new game show. They could call it, "Are You Smarter Than a Second Grader?" :lol: :lol: Cheers!
Markit
What a load of old cobblers - and I don't mean shoe makers, either. Roy just cause you use big words doesn't mean that you are smart - parrots can do it too, it also doesn't mean that you know what the hell you are talking about either.As usual it has fully escaped your laser-like attention that this thread was about - namely authors in the Netherlands and Islam - why would this require any fore knowledge of Bali? I'm not surprised that you would have a much more enjoyable and insightful conversation with your oldest son - [i]he can't get away and probably dare not disagree with his daddy[/i]. And I'm sure the insights are all his :twisted: . Well daddy, we can disagree and apparently you don't like it - [b]tough![/b]
Roy
Markit, you remind of a scene from a Monty Python movie...can't remember the name, but this English knight, already with both his arms cut off, is screaming at the French who are barricaded behind the fortress walls, "come on and fight man, let's fight, this is only a flesh wound!" If I recall correctly, the French response was to throw a cow off the wall of the castle and squash the knight once and for all. You have been so seriously beaten, sometimes without mercy, and yet you insist on carrying on, and on, and on. You remind me of this hapless knight. Whatever humor that used to be found by your persistence and endless ranting about all to do about nothing is quite frankly, no longer funny.The fact that in a few weeks you are about to embark on your first trip to Bali is ironic as possibly can be, in my view. I truly hope a Tecko gecko plants his wisdom squarely on your forehead about 3 AM some morning. Aside from the intervention of some Tecko gecko poop, or perhaps a falling cow, I see you as a hopeless case...and well beyond my ability to help in any way. Phil has already extended his kind wishes that you and the Mrs. Markit have a wonderful time in Bali. I extend the same well wishes.
harry_ej
Wilders is a Nazi. He's not a respected politician in the Netherlands. He doesn't represent the majority in the Netherlands. There are extreme right winged parties in most countries, and he's the Dutch disgrace. There's no point discussing the point he is making, even when he's partly right. He's simply stating that when you're a Muslim you are the from the wrong religion. There's no way you can convince him or other Nazis that they are wrong. He doesn't offer any solutions, but only tells us that the Muslims are wrong and that we should fight them. It's an insult for all moderate Muslims.[/quote]Part of the problem with the muslems in The Netherlands has been caused by the (left minded)intellectuals who dominate the media in the Netherlands. Their Politically Correct ideas have been adopted by Dutch politicians (from progressive to liberal) and implemented into current dutch politics.ONe of the PC ideas that has influenced the way Dutch politics have dealt with muslim minorities the last 30 years is the Law of the Abject West, which simply states that white western and christian people (especially males) are inherently and without exception bad and evil whereas Non Western non Christian people are without exception good and benign and victimized by the white western people.Minorities have therefore been put on pedestals and been pampered and spoiled by all the Dutch governments that have been elected the last 25/30 years. They were seen as victims that needed help and they could get anything done and had no obligations but only rights. They were encouraged to keep their own (good) culture/rules/mindset and encouraged not to adopt the (evil) Dutch culture and language. ONly the last few years the government has started to encourage them to adopt some of the Dutch culture.This is one of the main reasons why there are so many poblems with (especially but not only) muslim immigrants in the Netherlands right now. Many are jobless and in crime, don't speak passable Dutch, don't respect the weak Dutch who always position themselves and their culture inferior to the Muslim culture, feel that they are in power etc.Things will not change in The Netherlands because as we speak the Government and Media have become even more PC.This is one of the reasons i want to leave, the future of the Netherlands is bleak at best, there is no future there.
Roy
Hey, Markit is on-line now! Do you think more American history lessons from him are coming? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Roy
Bring it on Markit, we can almost make this a "chat" experience.
Roy
Opps, he just signed off. Oh well, no surprise there, at least not from me. Cheers all!
Markit
Roy, finally a gem of wisdom:[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8F"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8F[/url] ... re=relatedHad forgotten this scene.Thanks, but don't get carried away the rest is still BS. :lol:
