JAMIE
ALLEN ..I live near this family . We've been watching this case for a year . Sad how we treat each other , really . Im glad for the outcome . I hope they toss the key on these fine folks .
fordprefect
Egad! What a pair of troglodytes!
Adam
Sadly, though not to the same extent, the same sort of exploitation is happening closer to home.The economy boom here in WA has led to some major employment issues where even unskilled workers can make big bucks on minesites. As a result the lesser paying (though still good by most peoples reckoning) unskilled jobs are hard to fill. In the industry that I'm involved with (WA Rock Lobsters) deckhands are almost impossible to recruit nowdays so a lot of the larger operators in the fishery have been bringing in Indonesian workers to fill the decks. This is sensational I think, and I believe that we should be encouraging more Indonesian workers to fill the jobs that many lazy West Ozzy's can't be bothered doing.However, what really stinks is that these poor guys that are coming over are being exploited. Most of these workers are on boats that carry very big entitlements to fish the fishery (lots and lots of lobster pots) so they are working very hard. In a normal situation a deckhand would be getting approx. 8% of the boats gross revenue as their 'take home' salary which for a vessel with 200 pots might equate to around $80k for the season (Nov - June). But the bastards that are bring these fellas over are only paying them a minimum wage and are perfectly entitled to do so. This really sucks I reckon. Yes, a minimum Aussie wage is big bucks to an Indonesian, but everybody's equal so why should they not be remunerated the same as an Aussie worker.This sort of attitude is starting to creep over into the hospitality industry too with a recent push to try and recruit Balinese chefs and hotel workers. I'm betting they're probably going to be on minimum wages too....Adz
tintin
The same thing happened in my town, Winchester, 2 years or so ago. The two domestic servants in question were also Indonesians. However, they did get well deserved justice the following year. :) SAUDI NATIONAL CONVICTED OF VISA FRAUD AND HARBORING ILLEGAL ALIENS BOSTON - A Saudi national living in Winchester, Mass. pleaded guilty today in federal court to charges of visa fraud and harboring of illegal aliens relating to her employment of two domestic servants.Hana F. Al Jader, 40, of Winchester, pleaded guilty before U.S. District Judge Reginald J. Lindsay to two counts of visa fraud and two counts of harboring illegal aliens for private financial gain in connection with her employment of two women from Indonesia as domestic servants, At today's plea hearing, the prosecutor told the Court that Al Jader, who has resided in Winchester and Arlington since the mid-1990's with her invalid husband, Prince Mohamed Al Saud, brought the two Indonesian women to the United States in 2003 to work as domestic servants. In order to obtain visas for the women, Al Jader was required to submit to the U.S. Embassy in Saudi Arabia a copy of a work contract guaranteeing that the women would be paid $1,500 a month and would work no more than eight hours daily. However, when the women arrived in the United States, they were required to work - cooking, cleaning, serving meals, caring for the severely disabled Prince, and serving at frequent parties - routinely in excess of eight hours per day. Al Jader paid them only $300 a month which, at their request, was wired to their families in Indonesia.In July 2003, Al Jader, through an attorney, filed applications with the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services for a six-month extension of the visas for her domestic servants. In connection with the extension application, Al Jader submitted another employment contract, which again represented falsely that the servants were each being paid $1,500 per month and working only eight hours per day. Based on the false information provided in the contracts, the servants' visas were extended, however, when those extensions expired, Al Jader failed to apply for or obtain any additional extensions. Despite the fact that the servants' legal status had expired, Al Jader continued to employ them for the next 11 months at the same pay rate of $300 per month. In exchange for Al Jader's plea of guilty to these charges, her agreement to pay restitution of approximately $98,000 to each of the servants, and her acceptance of a stipulated order of deportation to her native Saudi Arabia, the government agreed to dismiss pending charges of forced labor and document servitude against Al Jader.Judge Lindsay scheduled sentencing for Dec. 12, 2006, at 2:30 p.m. Al Jader faces a maximum punishment of 10 years in prison, to be followed by three years supervised release, and a fine of $250,000 on each of the four counts.[/quote]
FreoGirl
The greedy cow. 1500 per month is still less than $9 per hour based on a 40 hour week. I wonder how she got found out and how the girl's plight was exposed. I suspect there is lots of this going on in the world. I have my fears about what goes on for the thousands of girls that go to Saudi to be maids, it seems to me they are also grossly underpaid.As to the WA sitation - I know Indo guys working on fishing boats for $500 per week who are thrilled. Their Aust counterparts get way more. I know Philipino gardners who work a 50 hour week under contract for $17 per hour flat, they are not as thrilled but are hoping to change their visas (fat chance)I hate exploitation.
Jimbo
TintinThere are cases like this every day in Saudia of housemaids (mostly Indonesian) being abused. What a sign of the world we live in that this kind of thing makes common reading.Nowadays also those from poor ex soviet union countries are suffering similar fate from everything from forced labour to prostitution.The time of the year is coming when peace to all men is espoused. I trully wish it was Christmas (or Ramadan or any of the great religious festivals) evry day so that we can behave well for 365 days rather than just one.As I get older but not necessarily wiser I sometimes despair of mans inhumanity to man even in here.
BaliLife
this is terrible.. but freogirl - you're not suggesting $17 / hour for gardening is exploitation are you? seems more than reasonable to me.. i mean afterall, it's unskilled labour - in fact seems pretty decent..ct
FreoGirl
Balilife, $17 per hour flat for a 50 hour week is exploitation. Their workmates are on around the same money - for the first 38 hours - and then they are on overtime rates.These guys have to work a 50 hour week- which means 5 days of 9 or 9.5 hours one week, and 6 x 9 hour days the following week. You try doing physical labour for those sorts of hours - it sucks. They are locked into this for 4 years and have no option to leave and work for another employer.
Adam
Balilife, that depends on what everybody else gets doing the same thing. If they're only getting $17 an hour and an aussie worker would be getting more, that stinks!But your right, $17 an hour is perfectly fine, very, very reasonable in fact for unskilled labour. The truth is that almost all of us in western countries are grossly overpaid relative to our actual value to the planet, skilled or not, including many of us that contribute to this forum, truth be told. Like it or lump it, our western greed mentality comes at the cost of someone at the other end of the spectrum and it gets worse and worse each year. Jimbo, as an aside, what is a housemaid in Saudi likely to make? My soon to be sister in law is over there doing just that. Boy has she got some courage - she had barely left the kabupaten her whole life and then got a 2 year contract to work in Saudi Arabia. She's had to leave her 2 kids (2yrs and 10 yrs) behind with her husband and only gets 1 phone call every 3 months. How tough is she!
BaliLife
yes i agree if they're getting less than their counterparts for no other reason other than not being aussies, it's wrong.. but apat from that, it's still reasonable for unskilled labour..but geez, a WA min wage rate of $13.91 (thanks allan - i didn't know that) is increddible.. i think it's $5.50 per hour in the US.. no wonder australia's got a huge problem with inflation.. it's about $8 bucks in Canada (or at least in BC).. $13.91 is in my opinion far far too high as a minimum wage.. it tells our youth they don't need to strive, but rather just meet low standards.. $5.50 on the other hand in the US is just downright in-humane..ct
tintin
[b]FreoGirl.[/b]You're being too kind with that bitch. US$9/hr (AU$10.50) is the wages IF this was indeed the true wages, and IF the servants worked 40 hr/week. In reality, these 2 women were working on the average 55 - 60 hrs/week, and they ACTUALLY were paid US$300 PER MONTH!! You do the calculations...FYI, the minimum wage in the USA was at the time US$7.50/hr (it's now $8/hr), and $9.00/hr was considered quite fare for this type of menial job.Many people here look at Australia as the "land of plenty" (and freedom), and I think you seem to confirm it. I know nothing is perfect, but...The guys employed by the landscaping companies in Massachusetts, or picking up lettuces in California, etc, or most other menial jobs in the US, are all illegal aliens from Central America, and they all get paid BELOW the minimum wage. Most Americans say that they are illegals, therefore they shouldn't be here in the first place, and if they don't like it, they shouldn't have come. But they did and they ARE EMPLOYED nevertheless. Talking about exploitation and hypocrisy... As an anecdote, one of the US presidential candidates, Mitt Romney, ex-Governor of Massachusetts, was recently challenged by another one, ex-Mayor of NY, Rudi Guliani, about this subject: hypocrisy. One of Romny's platforms is "Let's get rid of all these illegals," but the landscaping company he has been using for years, was employing all illegal aliens. He couldn't talk his way out of that one, and he fired the company...[b]Jimbo.[/b]I hear, from time to time, about similar stories in Saudi Arabia, but, as you say, it must be only the tip of the iceberg. And then, of course, there is STILL real slavery going on in places like Sudan, where people are actually sold...[b]Allen[/b]I was surprised to learn that the minimum wage in Indonesia is Rp650,000-850,000. You should tell this to the staff in most of the Bali hotels and restaurants...One of my friend in Ubud has a small hotel (which nowadays is practically [i]bangkrut[/i]. Few years ago, his "regular" employees were getting Rp250,000-300,000/mo, plus food, for work-week longer than 40 hrs. But conveniently, he always had a bunch of young "trainees," whom he paid just Rp100,000/mo.(plus food, mind you)!?...They had to be trained after all...to carry suitcases and mop the floors (I am sure their mothers must have taught them how to, when they were young kids).
drbruce
The minimum wage in Bali is routinely avoided for several reasons: 1) fear of losing a job; 2) employers can seek an exemption based on the number of employees and the amount of money that the company takes in; 3) the absence of a regulating agency with any bite ; 4) the old standby of training as Daniel mentioned - I know people that were trainees for years; 5) the sad state of Indonesian unions after 30 years of intimidation and the fear of being branded communist if workers stick up for their rights. Oh, and the mininum wage that I mentioned in my podcast is for Bali. Different islands have different minimum wages.As for Saudi, it's generally a hellhole for workers from Indonesia and Pakistan as I can attest to from many friends and family who worked there. But, people continue to go to work there because they feel that they can put up with abuse for a few years in order to save up for whatever it is that they want - for my family members, it was to get capital to start their own business.
FreoGirl
TinTin, I did do the math. What I meant was that even at $1500 a month it was cheap, and how greedy she is to pay so much less than that. I have worked as a domestic in the States and know only too well that you work way more than an 8 hour day.We also have illegal immigrant who work virtually for their food, if you go to the areas where they grow vegetables (like Carnarvon) there are heaps of illegals. Even at my husband's mosque we know some illegals - who work for whatever they can get. My point about the gardeners was not about the $17 per hour (which I agree is very reasonable) it was about the 50 hour week. Not fair or reasonable.Balilife - I'm sure it is a long time since you had to survive (if ever) on minimum wage. You know how expensive it is to live in Perth - you can't rent a 2 bedroom flat for less than $250 per week and a small 3 bed home way out in the sticks is over $300 per week. Much more than that for anything nicer or closer. So you tell me how you live on roughly $400-$450 in the hand?Minimum wage in Indonesia - I think it would be a long time before the government regulated anything like that. I'm no unionist, but didn't the unions in the Western countries get us minimum wage? And that is never likely to be repeated in Asia. I think it has to come from the integrity of employers. Nice dream.I think the punishment dealt out to the Saudi nationals in this story is too light. They should be totally shamed, both in the USA AND in Saudi.
tintin
FreoGirl,My "you do the math" (for the REAL salary) was only a rhetorical statement. I know you read the whole article, and you did the maths for the theoretical salary, but you were aware of the puny real salary.As for the punishment which you thought was too lenient, what was in the article was also a "theoretical" punishment : Hana F. Al Jader of Winchester was sentenced only to two years of probation, the first six months of which had to be served in home confinement, after which she'd be deported to Saudi Arabia. The only uncertain point at the time was should the time when she was on bail, and confined to her home, be considered?
Jimbo
AdamAt the very most it will $200 per month and maybe even less. Some are treated very well, some are treated badly and some are just treated like its a job. Hours are very long as they tend to live in but there are many who go so I suppose it must be worth it.
Adam
Jimbo, thanks for that. :( Thats so sad, my young niece and nephew don't have their mum for 2 years so that she can not even make 2 million Rp. a month :( Still, the only other option for her and her husband and most people in rural Genteng is 17k Rp. a day for rice field work, so I can see why they do it. It certainly makes the time I'm away from my fiance feel insignificant thats for sure.
Thorsten
[b]The UNICEF photo of the year 2007 by US photographer Stephanie Sinclair ![/b]http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1048831,00.jpg[/img]This is the wedding photo of a [i]couple[/i] in Afghanistan the guy is 40 years old, the [i]bride[/i] is 11 years old!She has no idea what's going on, sold by her family to a completely stranger :cry:
tintin
Actually, in this case, the groom is a youngsters. :) I've heard of much older men marrying young teenager girls. Personally, I've never seen it, because as soon as an Afghan girl menstruates, she starts a life-long reclusion, first in her family compound and then in her husband's. Of course, this type of marriages, old men and young girls, also exist in many parts of the world, in Asia and Africa.Disregarding the lecherous aspect of this type of marriage for a moment, it is based on the survival of the species. In Afghanistan, for example, the maternal mortality rate is one of the highest in the world: 16% of Afghan women die while pregnant or during delivery. The infant mortality rate is the second highest in the world. The probabilty that a child will not see his/her first birthday is 17%. When Afghanistan was my stomping ground in the 1970s, one out a five kids did not make it to the age of five, and things have not changed today. The life expectancy at birth is 47 years!, the GNI per capita is about US$250. These problems are compounded by patriarchal Afghan traditions, as the country is for the most part rural and remote. Therefore, this type of marriage somehow guaranties the survival of the tribe: this is nature at work.By no means am I defending these traditions, which, like I said before, exists in many other places, but one should understand the contexts. Things can be made to change, even in Afghanistan, not over night, but step by step. IMO, this will happen when people stop praying to their gods instead of REALLY being concerned about their fellow human beings and acting on it (Sorry for this last digression, but isn't it the truth?).Nevertheless, Afghanistan is the most extraordinary place I have ever visited.
FreoGirl
Tintin, marriage to an 11 year old girl is less about survival of the tribe and more about the belief that the younger the bride the more guarantee that she is a virgin.This is about men wanting a virgin bride, not the tribe surviving. The medical issues that these girls suffer, due to too early sexual activity and pregnancy before their child's bodies are fully developed, are well documented. The mortality rate for both the child bride and the baby is very high, for the simple fact that they are not ready yet to bear children. How can that be survival of the tribe? There is a good reason that most societies ban this sort of thing. Society's laws are generally based on what works - so we don't mate with our children or close relatives, we don't have sex with children, and a whole raft of other 'natural' laws.There simply is no context in which I can put this girl's plight that makes it ok.
tintin
- It is a fact that physiologically, Afghan girls mature faster than western girls, and an 11-years old Afghan is more apt at carrying a babe successfully than a 11-years old Australian girl.- Marrying a young girl for her virginity is not the cause of these child-brides. In Afghan society, once a girl has menstruate, she is no longer allowed to be alone in the presence of a man. She will be, until the day she dies, practically always surrounded by the females of her household only. So, a 22-years old unmarried Afghan woman will be as virgin as a 11-years old girl. But of course "things" happen, with an uncle or a cousin. In that case, if found out, she will be killed, knifed, by one of her brothers, with the full approval of her family. If not found out, she most likely will be found out when she gets married. The husband will send her back to her father, and there will be a big quarrel regarding the dowry. Most of the time it will be returned, and then I pitty the poor"sinful" girl.- Afghan men marry late, and some never marry at all, because they must buy their wives. A wife is relatively expensive for the average Afghan, and it will take years before he can accumulate enough dow for the dowy.- Of course, Society's laws are generally based on what works, and the Afghan's societal laws are ancestral, so I guess they have worked until now, because Afghanistan is still here. You may not agree with most of them (I don't either on that particular one), but that's the way it is.- I am very familiar with the afghan society through studies and my involvement with Afghan people. I was one of the founding members of the Free Afghanistan Alliance, Cambridge, Mass, in 1980, and I am still somewhat active in Afghan causes. I have never read any break down regarding the maternal deaths of child-bride and their childrens, but maybe you have some?- In any case, I agree with you totally that the plight of the average Afghan girl and woman is horrific.
