nomad4ever
What do you guys think about this story, other than "Welcome to Indonesia!":[url]http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22568335-5001021,00.html[/url]Why can't they handle this whole thing in a more sensitive way? I mean, doesn't anybody care, what the world, the victims and potential tourists or investors might think?Probably not...
manuel
Their home - their rules.I totaly agree with a comment after the article.A perfect example of a corrupt third world country with NFI.it says quite all.
Tim
Fifth anniversary and "still just going thru the motions" for any real justice.Sad for Indonesia.Tim
FreoGirl
Well I'm going to go against the sentiments here and say that I believe it is a good thing if any involved in extreme terrorism can not only see and admit that what they did is wrong, but then go so far as to assist authorities in preventing other extremists doing harm.I think you might have missed the point regarding the BBQ. Up until yesterday it was the holy month of Ramadan. The breaking of the fast at sunset, and the prayers at that time, is quite significant. Ramadan is a time when muslims seek forgiveness from all around them, and a time of spiritual cleansing. Apart from fasting from food, drink, sex, smoking, etc one must also refrain from aggression and bad thoughts.30 days is a long haul to fast. The breaking of the fast each evening and prayers helps one keep going, along with the support of those around you.I am in no way condoning, sympathising, or empathising with the Bali bombers - or any murderers. But I can understand where the police are coming from in 'turning' these guys to help them in their effort to find and prevent similar atrocities. If these guys are in jail for the remainder of their lives, then it is a good thing if they have seen the error of their ways and are able to follow their religion as it was [b][i]meant [/i][/b]to be expressed. Giving these guys privelages not only rewards them, but encourages others to join them.Locking them up, and throwing away the key, essentially treating them in the same way as the terrorists who refuse to see that what they did was wrong, makes no sense. And without getting into a Corby debate - it was hardly "10 years for a joint".
dawnofjedi
Definitely see your point Freogirl. On the surface it looks quite ridiculous, but ultimately if this treatment of 'ex-terrorists' will improve the chances of reducing the amount and impact of 'future terrorists' and 'current-terrorists', then any means should be taken. I think the reduction of their sentences in those annual 'clemency' deals is a little bit different because that's just letting them off of their time for basically nothing. As long as these guys serve the full sentence, and while doing so help thwart the efforts of others to radicalize, then I've got nothing against giving them some 'satay ayam' or whatnot every once in a while, especially on their sacred holidays.Oh, and about the '10 years for a joint thing'....I dont think this necessarily has to mean Corby. She's not the only person that has ever run afoul the law for the Ganja. It could be 10 years for the next person caught in Bali just trying to peacefully enjoy and relax with a joint. The fact is that laws like that, which are so harsh against such a harmless offense are indeed ridiculous when someone aiding and abetting terrorist acts gets a smaller sentence, or someone illegally chopping down trees on Kalimantan or smuggling Orangutans is rewarded with a drink and a smile and never even the thought of conviction. That's what I think at least.
BaliLife
these people are murderers.. i don't believe in the term terrorist as it is purely a political label used to brand a political or militant group with different views.. i don't want to get into a whole thing but hamas is cosidered by the US to be a terrorist org.. i'm sure many around the world think that of the whitehouse..we should just (in my opinion) use the term murderers as it is less subjective - the problem then of course is that any soldier who's killed another in battle s a murderer, which i disagree with.. in some cases.. subjectivity is such a pain in the arse..ct
Sanurian
[b]nomad4ever[/b]Because you asked, I'm responding: I think the story sucks. I would have liked to have seen the bombers barbequed (or at least, incarcerated forever). I was on the beach at Jimbaran on the night of the second Bali Bombing, with a group of friends. For some reason, which still escapes me, we would have gone straight to one of the restaurants that was bombed, but we went to another one instead. I saw the owner of the first one on local TV coming out of hospital about a week later. Earlier, on the same day, I happened to drive past Raja's in Kuta (unusual for me). Call it what you will - just plain "lucky", perhaps.[b]dawnofjedi[/b]...but ultimately [b]if[/b] this treatment of 'ex-terrorists' will improve the chances of reducing the amount and impact of 'future terrorists' and 'current-terrorists', then any means should be was busted for allegedly taken...[/quote]That's a very big IF. Some, probably all of those misguided ratbags (fools, idiots) [b]don't[/b] deserve second chances, in my view. And your comment was in response to [b]Freogirl's[/b] saying this:...I can understand where the police are coming from in 'turning' these guys to help them in their effort to find and prevent similar atrocities. If these guys are in jail for the remainder of their lives, then it is a good thing if they have seen the error of their ways and are able to follow their religion as it was meant to be expressed. Giving these guys privelages not only rewards them, but encourages others to join them...[/quote]You're joking, right? Just recently, the "Chief of Security" at Kerobokan Jail was busted for allegedly running a drug distribution ring for the inmates. I'm interested in seeing what kind of "punishment" he gets (if convicted). Who knows - maybe he'll get a BBQ soon at the [i]Bali Policeman's' Ball[/i].The mind boggles, especially mine. :twisted:
nomad4ever
Hi freogirl and dawnofjedi - I could see it similar to you, if there weren't so many lifes lost, completely useless. And if there would be some justice in the treatment of inmates, maybe it could work, although at the moment, it's hard for me to make some sense out of it - if there is any. Maybe it's really only about the moneyJust yesterday I read then in the Bali Times, that Inmates of Kerobokan get their sentences reduced, due to Lebaran and the above mentioned "We are all Muslims...." philosophy.Problem is: even the Bali Bombers got reductions of 1-2 months on their sentences, but none of the jailed foreigners, officially, because they are not Muslims.One sure way of creating intolerance and hatred....
dawnofjedi
The first part is in response to Balilife, albeit very much off topic, but nevertheless a response to something that was earlier posted....the second part is more on topic....Ummm...Balilife, did you just bring Hamas into this debate? And it seems as though you are trying to imply that they are simply 'labeled' by the 'Western powers that be' as 'terrorists'....are you serious about this? The same champions of the art of suicide bombing civilians in restaurants, buses, and nightclubs? Those wonderful people that started shooting rockets over the border of Gaza into Israel the same exact day as Israel fully withdrew from that territory? The same people whose charter clearly calls for the destruction of Israel as opposed to any attempt at a peace deal? The same people that continue violence while their counterparts in the West Bank are feverishly trying to bridge the gaps to find a just solution to the problem? The same people that have sent grandmothers and children to do their dirty work, while they hide in the shadows making bombs at home with their family all about? And justify this all by religion?Are you really implying that this is an issue of 'subjective labelling' and bias from those 'evil' Americans? I think you need some soul searching my friend. And hopefully, while you are searching for a soul, you will accidentally bump into logic, or at least 'non-ignorance'. Otherwise, on the Indonesian front, I'd happily chill with a reformed Jemaah Islamiya terrorist and eat satay as long as his fate is life still life behind bars without possibility of parole. Assuming of course, he is hard at work at converting would be terrorists to the more peaceful side of existence. The true meaning of Islam that is. Peaceful, and not fanatic. And no, I have absolutely no remorse towards terrorism, but my guiding principal is compassion, and if this compassion is exhibited in true form, and ultimately leads to the spread of compassion to those who might otherwise end up the cold blooded killers of civilians, averting suffering and chaos, then by all means bring on the satay ayam, and if its requested, even a Bintang and a bit of satay kambing might be of order....so be it, in the name of pre-emptive compassion!
BaliLife
is entirely 'subjective labelling', the mujahudeen were labeled 'freedom fighters' when the US was helping them against russia, and magically became terrorists when they disbanded into the taliban and... oh what is that org called? oh yes al qaeda.. as for your comment about hamas not wanting peace.. they want peace as much as israel does i guess, not much.. in any case, i don't support in any way either side of the arguement.. but if the balinese were today defending their island from the dutch as they did before, guess what, they'd be called terrorists..ct
BaliLife
furthermore, like i said - murderers. the term terrorist just shouts political ambiguities.. murderer is far more appropriate and does not give political credibility to a group of loosely coupled individuals..ct
dawnofjedi
fine, call them the hamas murderers then...i think its an easy distinction within Palestinian resistance: the legit side which is led by Abbas who is trying for peace by peaceful means, negotiation, and compromise, and on the other side Hamas which, haha, i guess in your words wants peace, which is trying for it with rockets, absolutism, and an ideal for absolute destruction of their enemy (which they plot and plan and execute from the midst of all their own civilians and then cry foul when their 'enemy' tries to defend itself by getting to them before they get on the bus and do their 'noble' resistance against all those 'dangerous' riders of buses) and were never propped up as anything noble by the West....i dont think the Balinese had in mind total annihilation of the Dutch as their primary goal when defending Bali, nor do I think the Balinese would have condoned the targetting of Dutch civilians as reasonable means...these are 2 completely different situations....
BaliLife
back on point - i'd like to see the bali bombers barbequed - spit roasted personally.ct
Markit
Ok, all the foreigners have aired their views, hatreds, affinities and prejudices now.I, personally, would be very interested how the whole bombing thing was seen by the Balinese. Not the "on your shirt sleeve" shock and horror, but the real reaction. In the foreign press you here about 202 dead, of which 88 were Ozzys. You never, never hear that 38 of the dead were Indonesians... they must have felt fairly strongly about it - what do they think now? Not the politicos, the regular people.
BaliLife
not just the 38 dead indonesians that were tragically killed, but also the destructive effect this had on the bali economy.. how many kids got pulled out of school and sent to work because their mother / father / elder brother or sister lost their decent paying job in the tourism sector.. ct
ronb
[b]Re: RE: BBQ Party for Bali Bombers, 10 years jail for a Join[/b]Just picking up on this claim:Problem is: even the Bali Bombers got reductions of 1-2 months on their sentences, but none of the jailed foreigners, officially, because they are not Muslims.[/quote]An ABC report at [url="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/17/2008220.htm"]http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007 ... 008220.htm[/url]says that Renae Lawrence received a 3-month reduction. I do not believe being non-muslim is a factor in the deliberations. This same ABC report says Shapelle missed out because of bad behaviour - having a cell phone in her cell - would you believe.
Markit
I guessed that the economic repercussions would be the most evident, and not to negate these, I wonder whether:1)the Balinese blame the foreigners; for taking their business elsewhere and "causing" this economic miseryor2)the bombers for causing the foreigners to goor3)Muslims for their extremismor4)these "foreign" Indonesians for causing the Balinese this misery, ie because of religion, economic jealousy, etc - if, in fact it was "foreign" Indonesians.My considerations go a bit further than may superficially be evident in that "understanding" the cause of the act and its perpetrators borders on sympathy for them which from the reading I have been able to do does seem to exist in the general Balinese population. History shows us that it is not too wide a leap from sympathy to support. I would be very concerned about living somewhere where active support for the murder of tourists was present. Excepting Miami, of course. Sorry, needed to lighten up a little. :lol:
Bert Vierstra
I haven't noticed any "bordering on sympathy", but maybe we get our information from other sources.From the people I spoke with, I understand that they don't connect Muslims easily with extremism, they see just the bombers as terrorists. So 3 is a no.So, I choose 2 from your options. 1 is a definite NO.Regarding 4, people said (very local) the bombers may have been send from Thailand.....
matsaleh
I agree with your summation, Bert. I've talked about this with Balinese friends and none of them equates Islam, in general, with extremism. Many Balinese have Muslim friends who also condemn the acts of violence carried out by the extremists in the name of Allah. From the discussions I've had, the Balinese just want to get on with their lives and forget these incidents ever occurred. There seems to be some reticence on their part to even discuss this subject, especially with a foreigner.
manuel
Bert wrote: Regarding 4, people said (very local) the bombers may have been send from Thailand..... [/quote]FROM THAILAND ???water....
