Having rights versus getting your rights

Markit

As many of the most recent posts have to do with legal wrangles of one sort or another, with reference to postage, tenancy, leasing, etc. etc. I would be very interested in any experiences of, dare I say it; Going to court in Indonesia to contest some Indonesian injustice done. I mean, what is waiting for those that must or want to fight in an Indonesian court for their legal rights? Many contributors here will explain in great depth about legal rights and duties but, in my humble experience, it is a damn sight harder to get your rights (particularly in a 3rd world country) than it is in the West - and God knows it aint easy here. Irregardless of what the LAW says. Any experiences would be welcome, how long did it take, was it fair, were any awards payed/resolved? Just broad brush-strokes please CSI is bad enough. Thanks in advance.

matsaleh

Hi Markit, I don't have any experience with the Indonesian court system, but I do take exception to Indonesia being continually referred to as a 3rd world country. This term is outdated and perceived as derogatory. Do you think you could possibly use "developing country" instead?

Bert Vierstra

Well, I can only tell from one case, where I know a little about. There was a foreigner conned by a Indo lady in the North. He lent her money, but she never had the intention to give it back. She faked to have cancer and the lot. He got tired of it, and went to court. I don't know what or how things happened in court, but, he got her house, value of around 150.000 EUR, and she fled to another country. Unfortunately the guy died a year later or so. Sorry don't know all the details about it, but the foreigner really got her house.

Markit

Humble apologies about the 3rd world - it's just the way it's depicted, be it Thailand, Hong Kong, Argentina or Indonesia. Not my bad, as the saying goes. As for "developing country" I, frankly, consider that as describing most of the planet. But, to a woman that I have offered marriage to (and having been turned down for being a dog, I think) I will attempt to conform. Take me to court! Markit

DCC

I for one have never been to court and don't intend to change that - AstroBoy you clearly need conflict (and I guess lawyers?) in your life, that must be really depressing - hope you keep that tired s--t on your sad island.

BaliLife

furthermore, i believe high profile cases that have a lot of media and international attention are far more transparent and a lot less likely to see the outcomes be corrupted (like those alan outlined).. but i do believe low profile cases are far more likely to be the outcome of a transparent legal process.. but i think, you will find it difficult to find testimony of a cour proceeding.. ct

BaliLife

i would also say that the large majority of disputes are 'sorted out' outside of a court room.. i must say, i don't really have a lot more faith in the justice systems of the western world (except he who can afford the most expensive lawyer instead of the biggest bribe gets his / her own way).. i do have more faith in the torrence land title system that is prevalent in australia and canada as mentioned before - but even the torrence system doesn't assure against loss from fraud - it just provides an avenue of remedy from a state run fund should such occur, but it would unlikely match the current fair value of ones home.. in any case, the question is about courts and i don't think they're used as extensively in indo as they are here in canada, in australia, the uk and certainly the US.. ct

nomad4ever

I agree with DCC on this one - never been and never intend to go to Court. It's just too much bad energy. Not my cup of tea. Doesn't mean I don't have to change that opinion some day in the future....who knows what can come around.... :shock:

widder

"German isn't, as I'm sure you will agree, the most clear cut of languages for meaningful sayings" Well, actually I don't agree.

canubee

Based on my own experience - yes the indonesian courts have there flaws and weaknesses - and yes the courts are susceptible to corruption - but the courts and the legal system can be used to ur advantage in the resolution of commercial legal disputes - I am currently writing an article on my own experience and will hopefully post it in a week and let u know when it is posted

Markit

"Da liegt der hunt begrabben" - translated - that's where the dog is buried. Any guesses on what that might mean? No Germans allowed. :)

Thorsten

Correction: [b]Da liegt der Hund begraben ![/b]

widder

Thank you Thorsten.

matsaleh

[b]Re: RE: Having rights versus getting your rights[/b] [quote=Thorsten] [b]Da liegt der Hund begraben ![/b][/quote] Maybe you should change your signature, Thorsten. :P PS Nice to hear from you again. :D

Markit

Just to close this off (purely from my point of view, of course) I would just like to mention an old German saying which goes something to the effect that "Where there is no prosecutor, there is also no judge". German isn't, as I'm sure you will agree, the most clear cut of languages for meaningful sayings, but in this case what they are trying to say is - if nobody brings a complaint then there is no need for a court case - pretty obvious sh*t you might think but what with all the "advise" and information about various types of land contracts and how they may or may not apply to certain people and how they can be enforced or not etc. etc. I thought it might be of interest for all concerned to see what can actually happen in the worst case scenario - that being, you have bought a property in Bali utilizing one judicial tool or another to make the contract "work" and now your ownership is contested by the people you live with and, probably, have bought the land from (who else would have even a tenuous title to the land?). Since there have not been any remotely negative experiences related here I must assume, thank God, that it never happens. Or if it does happen, then maybe we "rich" tourists are the "Evilest Sons-of-bitches in the Valley"? as another old saying used to go. I found this interesting article concerning Balinese/Indo justice since placing the original question and it seems state the case for "Might makes right" quite clearly. http://www.theage.com.au/news/general/h ... 52967.html I guess my conclusions are: if at all possible, stay out of the courts, if that's not possible, get Hotman! :cry:

Markit

In der kurze liegt der wuerze

Thorsten

[quote]Maybe you should change your signature, Thorsten. :P [/quote] done :wink:

Thorsten

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Source: Groucho Marx 8)

Markit

For us foreigners, what was the "bone of contention"? (for the buried dog, of course) Thorsten's signature was in Sanskrit? An order for sate in shorthand? Something completely obscene? (translate immediately!) Don't do insiders - you're both farang... :oops:

matsaleh

[b]Re: RE: Having rights versus getting your rights[/b] [quote=Thorsten][quote]Maybe you should change your signature, Thorsten. :P [/quote] done :wink:[/quote] I like the addition! BTW Markit, "farang" is Thai. "Bule" in Indonesia.