Bert Vierstra
I often wander around the Wikipedia, to find background information on a subject or movies that I see. Sometimes reading about a subject your attention is caught by related subjects in a Wikipedia article.A few days ago, I ended up reading about the NASA Apollo program , an also read (and saw movies on Google Video) about the "conspiracy theories" ; The Apollo program is a hoax, a part of the cold war. One of the links on a page about this subject led me to:[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreality"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreality[/url]The first paragraph reads:In semiotics and postmodern philosophy, hyperrealism (not to be confused with surrealism) is a symptom of an evolved, postmodern culture. Hyperreality is a means of characterising the way the consciousness interacts with "reality". Specifically, when a consciousness loses its ability to distinguish reality from fantasy, and begins to engage with the latter without understanding what it is doing, it has shifted into the world of the hyperreal. The nature of the hyperreal world is characterised by "enhancement" of reality. Some famous theorists of hyperreality include Jean Baudrillard, Albert Borgmann, Daniel Boorstin, and Umberto Eco.[/quote]Of course there are famous thinkers and philosophers who will be able to elaborate on the concept of Hyperreality and give samples like these [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulf_War_Did_Not_Take_Place"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulf_W ... Take_Place[/url] , and will have a much better understanding then I by just reading the Wikipedia article, but why not try to apply this concept to Bali, and the people, for instance, of this forum.Phrases like "The Real Bali", "Living the Dream" etc may give a reason for that :)One of the things that I consider a big part of the "downfall" of Bali Tourism, is the change of perception "the world" has of Bali, after it had become part of "the world" by means of terrorist attacks vs Hyperreality created by those holiday magazines etc. People may be confused about what Bali really is...Surely "people" involved in the tourist industry will try to rebuild the same image, unconciously, because of their hyperreal concept of Bali, lying to themselves, and to the rest of the world, only to find themselves empty handed when they wake up (are woken up again) from their hyperreal dream.My guess it is the same for (future) expats. Their hyperreal concept of Bali, prolonged and sustained by language barriers, will get them into trouble. Some may cling to their hyperreality by means of seclusion and ignore the knocking on the door, others may wake up one day and realize the truth (or not) and feel fooled by themselves or others.Living the Dream, hmmmm
Sanurian
Seems like you're reading some heady stuff, [b]Bert[/b]....One of the things that I consider a big part of the "downfall" of Bali Tourism, is the change of perception "the world" has of Bali, after it had become part of "the world" by means of terrorist attacks vs Hyperreality created by those holiday magazines etc. People may be confused about what Bali really is...[/quote]I thought Bali was well and truly part of the "world" [b]before[/b] terrorism raised its ugly head. Terrorist attacks here have definitely affected tourist numbers and the businesses of travel agents. I think that Bali is a very pretty island filled with lovely Balinese people (generally), slap dab in the middle of a huge Islamic country (Indonesia). A fascinating, vibrant, mystical, at times unfathomable culture, with warts and all. A great many of the people continue to struggle to make ends meet. Escalating prices for nearly everything, be they for the cost of petrol/gas or how much it costs to pay for the cremation of a loved one and the ceremonies involved.From my own experiences, notions of Bali as some kind of living "paradise" are somewhat myopic (and usually generated by travel agents). Bali is [b]not[/b] necessarily "paradise" for many Balinese. It's a hard, daily slog just to get ahead, stay on top, sometimes just to survive. ...Living the Dream, hmmmm...[/quote]Precisely. Many expats carry around their own personal dreams of "living the dream". Not all dreams are good - there can be nightmares as well. :cry:
tintin
That's a nice topic, Bert, but if you are bringing Baudrillard or Umberto Eco in the mix, I'll be damn if I touch it, lest I am called again a pedant. :roll:
Bert Vierstra
[b]Re: RE: Bali, a hyperreality? The island that is not.[/b]That's a nice topic, Bert, but if you are bringing Baudrillard or Umberto Eco in the mix, I'll be damn if I touch it, lest I am called again a pedant. :roll:[/quote]Well, I don't really care who is mixed in :P Just wanted to find out if Bali is a hyperreality, and how this may influence Bali...
macupblue
non corruption means 10 2006 2005Neuseeland9,69,6Singapur9,49,4Australien8,78,8Hongkong8,38,3Japan7,67,3Macau6,6-Vereinigte Arabische Emirate6,26,2Bhutan6,0-Katar6,05,9Israel5,96,3Taiwan5,95,9Bahrain5,75,8Oman5,46,3Jordanien5,35,7Sudkorea5,15,0Malaysia5,05,1Kuwait4,84,7China3,33,2Indien3,32,9Saudi-Arabien3,33,4Sri Lanka3,03,2Armenien2,92,9Syrien2,93,4Georgien2,82,3Mongolei2,83,0Iran2,72,9Kasachstan2,62,6Laos2,63,3Ost-Timor2,6-Vietnam2,62,6Jemen2,62,7Nepal2,52,5Philippinen2,52,5Aserbaidschan2,42,2Indonesien2,42,2Papua-Neuguinea2,42,3Kirgisien2,22,3Pakistan2,22,1Tadschikistan2,22,1Turkmenistan2,21,8Kambodscha2,12,3Usbekistan2,12,2Bangladesch2,01,7Irak1,92,2Myanmar1,91,8
Bert Vierstra
Well that is all most 10 % improvement for Indonesia in a year !
Thorsten
Don't know where you got these numbers from macupblue, but I could almost swear for last year it was:1. Indonesia2. Burma (Myanmar)3. Philippines Anyway, it doesn't have any influence at all in respect to the context/ intention of this thread, so let's not start a discussion due corruption!best regardsThorsten
manc in oz
[b]Re: RE: Bali, a hyperreality? The island that is not.[/b]Bali is not necessarily "paradise" for many Balinese. [/quote]How could it be? The average Balinese doesn't get a proper education, doesn't have access to decent health care, is subject to the one of the most corrupt and inefficient governments in the world and has been tempted and corrupted by the easy money of tourism. Meanwhile business is stagnant, staff sit around all day with hardly any customers or report for duty at $600 per night villas that have sprung up all over the island but are lucky to have 20% occupancy.It fashionable for Westerners rail against the materialism and stress in their lives and daydream about the idyllic lifestyle of the subsistance rice farmer living in a paradise, plucking fruit from the trees without a care in the world. The harsh reality is one of daily suffering where the rich tourist provide a daily rude reminder of just how little progress Indonesia has provided for its average citizen over the last 100 years.[/quote]Well put Allan. Very interesting topic Bert.
truth sayer
Although I haven't been physically present as a Bali resident (although I have visited in recent times)I have lived my life and raised my half Balinese sons with principles of bakti-yoga (the Vedic principle of devotion to God). I know my sons have somewhat better of a conception of bakti than many of the Balinese in Bali. Too many of the younger generation have become enamored by the Western influence, of surfing, drinking and partying. Not to say there aren't any young Balinese who haven't learned the basics of their traditional culture, but I spent a good deal of time talking with many disillusioned young people on the streets of Kuta. Not only does hyperreality exist with the expat community, but it exists with the Balinese themselves. A reinstatement of the principles of bakti, with consideration of the time, place and circumstances is a must if the culture of Bali is to survive the continued onslaught of the Western influence. Anyone of you as expatriates that stay in Bali should be educating yourselves and others on these principles. It doesn't mean that you have to "convert" but if you love Bali and it's people, then stop being so self-absorbed, and get off your barstools long enough to do something about the mess that has been created in which at one time, was one of the most balanced cultures the world ever has known. Hence, the reason so many of you call it home, or would like to. I understand there exist many expat's who care and want to help Bali. The most important lessons to learn are to understand the principles of bakti (spelled bhakti) in Sanskrit. There are many English language books out there to educate yourself, the best ones are by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. You don't have to learn a lot of Balinese, simply try to understand bakti, and put it into practice. One of th main differences that has brought Bali down, is the reinstatement of killing of animals for food, which is not a principle of bakti-yoga. Due to influences of other cultures in Indonesian history, (mostly Moslem and Christian) the principles of ahimsa (non-violence to all living entities) have been forgotten. For true devotion, killing of animals for food is strictly condemned, violence begets violence. This is the main principle that "Bali bhaki" has lost, hence the culture of bakti isn't pure like it once was, and the culture itself has lost it's focus. There are several thousand Balinese out there who have taken up vegetarianism, along with giving up alcohol. They are truly living the principles of bakti-yoga, and helping bring Bali back to it's eternal, original purpose on the planet, to love and serve God and by serving His servants, we serve Him as well. At one point Bali could've easily have been the perfect example of how a culture can live in balance with it's people, God and the earth. I know that when I came there in 1971, it was still largely unchanged. It's up to us, as expats, to stop waiting for everyone else (government) to do something, and act on the principles of bakti. If you truly love Bali, then educate yourself and your children back to the basics.
truth sayer
I forgot to mention that I am now in the process (having been invited by certain Balinese) of coming back to Bali to start a small educational program to teach the principles of bakti-yoga and vegetarianism and English, beginning with young children. Many of their Balinese parents are looking into their roots, according to Vedic principles, and want to get back to the basics. Because I was one of the 1st Western women to marry in Kuta, and I later became initiated into bhakti-yoga (also known as the science of self-realization), I found I had a great deal of respect thru-out the old-timers of Kuta, and now generations of their children, disillusioned with modern Bali. I am funding everything on my own, with only some visa help from my sponsers. I am hoping to get over there within the next few months. Anyone who is interested in this project please contact me. Thanks Ibu Kaysie Sulastri
Bert Vierstra
Kaysie, People in Bali kill, offer and eat pigs.Its part of their religion and culture.And you want to make them vegetarians, teach them yoga and bring them back to God.And not only that, you generalize us by telling we should get of our bar stools and we are self absorbed.And you say that because of Muslims and Christian influence the pure Balinese started killing animals.I think you have over-idealized Bali and its people, try to impose your own ideas of how the world should look like on "them" and "us".And this is exactly what I tried to get going with my post.
SamD
I never knew Bali in the 70's, so cannot comment on the the social and cultural atmosphere BTAS (Before The Aussie Surfers - refer your recent post on another thread). I would probably agree with you that something of the purity of the Balinese culture has been diluted by the arrival of Western tourism and commercialism but I would hesitate before calling the result a "mess". The Balinese still practice their rituals and ceremonies within the framework of their modern lifestyles. Even when not living in Bali, they continue to observe the main Hindu festivals and maintain strong relationships within the local Balinese community.As regards the Vedic principle of non-violence, in my experience, both in Bali and overseas, none of the Balinese that I have met have practiced total vegetarianism. Those that I know well I imagine would be offended if I classed them as "violent" for killing a pig or chicken to feed their family. I honestly can't see your point in claiming that this common practice is responsible for "bringing Bali down". What about TV? What about drugs? What about Indonesia's relocation policy for that matter? Are you suggesting that sitting down to a leg of pork is more detrimental to Balinese society? OK, you are a vegetarian but you can't blame society's ills on people just because they do not agree with your particular lifestyle choices.I don't imagine there are any expats or Balinese "waiting for the government to do something" to get Bali "back to the basics". I believe the Balinese are quite capable of handling nightclubs and alcohol for example (refer your other post) without losing their cultural identity. Just because they enjoy doing things that Westerners do doesn't make them less Balinese.Good luck with your project.
rakini
[b]Re: RE: Bali, a hyperreality? The island that is not.[/b]The most important lessons to learn are to understand the principles of bakti (spelled bhakti) in Sanskrit. There are many English language books out there to educate yourself, the best ones are by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.[/quote]I would guess from the reference to Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that truth sayer is a Hare Krishna devotee. ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) is well known throughout the world for bringing the practice of bhakti-yoga to the West. The principals of bhakti and ahimsa are indeed integral to yoga, Indian and Balinese hinduism, but to point to the use of animals for food as the source of Bali's downfall is somewhat simplistic.
Sanurian
[b]SamD[/b]...I don't imagine there are any expats or Balinese "waiting for the government to do something" to get Bali "back to the basics". I believe the Balinese are quite capable of handling nightclubs and alcohol for example (refer your other post) without losing their cultural identity. Just because they enjoy doing things that Westerners do doesn't make them less Balinese...[/quote]I believe you're exactly right with your comment. [b]truthsayer[/b] seems to think, from her "extensive reading", that Bali's current-day problems can be traced directly to the fact that they kill animals and eat them, too. He/she asserts:...(what) has brought Bali down, is the reinstatement of killing of animals for food, which is not a principle of bakti-yoga...[/quote]I wonder when this "reinstatement" actually happened? And [b]if[/b] it did, what were the Balinese like then? I would remind her that back in the 19th century, regal Balinese were quite absorbed with territorial disputes (inter-regency rivalry). Murder, rape, pillaging, not to mention slave trading, were rife. Bali was one of the last places in SE Asia that condoned slavery. Many Balinese slaves were shipped to West Java to build what is these days called Jakarta.In the mid-60's, with the overthrow of Indonesia's first president (Soekarno) by a group of generals (notably Suharto), there was a huge blood-bath throughout Indonesia to destroy "communists" (the PKI party). On a [i]per-capita[/i] basis, more people were killed on Bali than anywhere else in the archipelago. What all this has to do with being a non-vegetarian escapes me. [b]truthsayer[/b]'s lost the plot before even having one. [i]Maybe[/i] he/she does...I wouldn't know. Sounds like the rantings of a 1960's psychedelic refugee to me.[b]macupblue[/b]Like [b]Thorsten[/b], I don't know where you got those numbers from (regarding international corruption ratings). I couldn't even see an entry for Nigeria, for example. I recall several years ago that Nigeria was supposed to be number one. Maybe it's slipped. It was interesting at the time because Indonesian government officials visited Nigeria (perhaps to get some clues on how to become number one). :cry:
Bert Vierstra
Here:[url="http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2006"]http://www.transparency.org/policy_rese ... s/cpi/2006[/url]
rakini
[b]Re: RE: Bali, a hyperreality? The island that is not.[/b] the principles of ahimsa (non-violence to all living entities) have been forgotten. For true devotion, killing of animals for food is strictly condemned, violence begets violence. [/quote]To equate ahimsa solely to non-violence in terms of killing other living beings oversimplifies an important principle of yoga/hinduism. Ahimsa is one of ten ethical codes outlined by Patanjali in the Yoga Sutra. Ahimsa is more than not eating meat - it is restraint from violence in thought, word and deed.The eating of meat does not in itself indicate violent intent or that someone will be violent in other aspects of their life. The Dalai Lama grew up in a meat eating culture (not easy to be a vegetarian in Tibet!) but could hardly be described as an advocate of violence, on the other hand Hitler was a vegetarian but his diet doesn't seem to have nullified his violent tendencies!
truth sayer
The eating of meat does not in itself indicate violent intent or that someone will be violent in other aspects of their life. The Dalai Lama grew up in a meat eating culture (not easy to be a vegetarian in Tibet!) but could hardly be described as an advocate of violence, on the other hand Hitler was a vegetarian but his diet doesn't seem to have nullified his violent tendencies[/quote]!Do you think the animal being slaughtered would agree that there is no violent intent? Doesn't even Jesus say, "thou shall not kill" do you think that he meant only people? He meant, Don't kill. As far as the Dalai Lama, yes, there are circumstances where meat is taken, in cold climates, but he has since become vegetarian. It is a great myth that Hitler was a vegetarian. For any of you who would wish to speak with one of the many thousands of Balinese who are vegetarian, Mr. Ida Bagus Gede, owner of the Maharani Hotel on Kuta at Poppies I, is a devout vegetarian (and his wife and family as well) It is from him that I learned a great deal about the introduction of meat eating to the ancient Hindu culture that came from Java. He is a very respected and educated gentleman, and would be happy to talk to anyone about bakti-yoga and vegetarianism and how it relates to the culture of Bali. The practice of bhakti-yoga is everyday life in Bali. It is the yoga of devotion, not doing some headstands or exersizes. The very acts of devotion to God (and they are worshiping God, in His many forms and manifestations) are what is called Bhakti. To quote Mr. Ida Bagus, "Balinese must stop the killing (of animals)" But in bhakti, it isn't only about being a vegetarian, it is the offering of the food to God to be sanctified, prasadam. Certainly the problems in Bali don't stem from meat eating alone, but karmically speaking, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is the law of karma. And by the way, I didn't take psychedelics in the 60's, and I came to Bali with my parents from Jakarta where my father was employed with an oil company.
DCC
Hmmmmmmmm, iteresting thread, Bert. Truth be told (good pun,eh) you should get your but out of kuta for a better perspective. If you want an urban one try Denpasar - that is urban Bali, Indonesia in the 21st century girl! I for one as expat try not to get too involved in the tourist party. I like Bali - the scenery, the peeps, the pomp THE PLACE! In the US life continues to become more one of isolation
Thorsten
Oh yeah, shame on these pseudo-modern Balinese, finally somebody got the key!Re-education, that's what they will need, courses held in Sanskrit to get them back to the basics, spiritual enlightenment from a vegetarian, abstinent, yoga practising, ex-hippie, Hara Krishna fundamentalist, who's living in (native traditions best preserved) Hawaii!Pierced guys on Harleys (even Gold Wings), Balinese girls wearing jeans and short skirts, kids watching comics in the TV, mobile phones, cars, air-condition, real toilets - this is indeed all disgusting!Lets pull down all these decadent palaces, remove the asphalt from the streets, switch off all the lights, burning down all this crap for tourists and also the "cafes" for the locals, let them get back to the basics - meditating in front of a grass shack, chanting, chewing roots!Hey Bert, maybe you should consider this in respect to Dewi's birthday this week, a nice flint stone would be nice -eh?Best regardsThorstenPS: I like my steak bloody and my bintang cold!
DCC
Hmmmmmmmm, iteresting thread, Bert. Truth be told (good pun, eh) you should get your butt out of Kuta for a better perspective of Bali, Indonesia in the 21st century girl! Hey I don't like what Disney did to Orlando but as a native I don't let distort my view of Florida - I save that for the mojitos in Miami. I for one as expat try not to get too involved in the tourist party. I like Bali - the scenery, the peeps, the pomp THE PLACE! In the US life continues to become more one of isolation and economic segregation and growing older only ads to the isolation. Unless you live next to a school there you will never hear the sound of children laughing or see their smiling faces.Allen, that's a pretty harsh view and one not seen on my little gang.
