mimpimanis
And I cant help thinking how it might affect us, not our friends in Bali but those of us on the muslim islands. I just hope it doesnt make a martyr out of him & concentrate energy on negative issues.
JAMIE
MIM... The media has said much the same thing as you have ? I dont get it , this man wasnt religous or a "friend" to the Muslium faithful . He was a typical dictator and crushed anyone in his way , Muslium or not . I ,like you , hope the media is wrong and the muslium fanatics dont prop him up as "another Muslium " wronged by the imperal west . jamie
Roy
A few things bother me about Saddam's execution. One thing is the timing. The fact is, he was executed less than sixty days after his conviction and his sentence to death. So, I ask you, Jamie, or anyone else, what western fashioned democracies carry out death sentences so quickly? None is my response...so how about yours?A second thing that bothers me is that he was not tried on all the charges brought against him. Many Iraqi people are left without a resolution of their charges against Saddam. The Kurds are top on this list. Under "democracy" those other Iraqi people had just as much a right to see justice served and Saddam found to be guilty for his crimes against their humanity. As one great early post colonial justice, in the 18th century America once wrote, "pure justice serves a full glass to all who seek justice." A third thing is just a gut feeling. That is that his execution was timed a little more than a week before what Bush will almost certainly declare as his "new ideas" regarding Iraq, which will almost certainly be a substantial increase in US troop presence in Iraq in yet another, "shock and awe" attempt to quell the violence in key areas of Iraq. This is madness, and the madness is growing at a very alarming rate. But, Bush can say, "another mission accomplished" and hope that the bite of his call up for more troops will be a bit more palatable to the American people. What do you say Jamie? Are you ready to see more young Americans, possibly family or friends go off to Iraq in this Bush/oil pursuit? If there was EVER a legitimate comparison of the Vietnam War to right now in Iraq, at this point in history, you will assuredly soon see it. I guarantee you that historians one, two, three hundred years from now will be writing what historians, analysts, and even some journalists are writing now. That is, that George Walker Bush, Jr. will go down as the ultimate worst president in all American history. That his incompetence and greed for money from his family and the Bin Laden family did not bring America down to its knees will be seen as a miracle. GW Jr. will NEVER be a nominated candidate for the "Profiles of American Courage" award, nor will he ever win a Nobel Peace prize, or any recognition from the United Nations that he so disparaged with lies about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. In those lies, a great American, a true patriot, General Colin Powell fell upon his sword, and resigned from public service. That man, that great General, was likely the only truly great American patriot who ever served in either the first, or second Bush Jr. administration...and he is gone. Jamie, I have serious reservations that the Iraqi judicial system that put Saddam to death yesterday is truly born of solid democratic principles. In my view, it was a huge mistake to execute him while Iraq is still under coalition control. Not until we Americans and all other members of the "coalition" are out of Iraq will Iraq EVER be a free democratic nation. The execution of Saddam, in order to provide closure to all Iraqi people, should have been done later, when all Iraqi people have been joined in this democratic entity envisioned by the West. Otherwise, what happened yesterday is just another murder. I have absolutely NO doubt that the US, viz, GW Jr, puts enormous pressure on the "provisional government of Iraq" to execute Saddam in a very timely fashion. President Bush is desperate to say something positive about Iraq, and as he announces in a few days, an increase in troops to once and for all quell the sectarian violence over there, listen for his words directed to Saddam's execution as a symbol of Iraq's independence and a democracy. Jamie, there is no argument from me, as quite frankly, you have no chance of wining it...the argument I mean. It's really best that you resign yourself into three more years of an American president that a decent Englishman would say at best, is a mad hatter.Like it or not Jamie, we are all entering a global world. To that I will chant, om santi, santi, santi om. _________________Om, Santi, Santi, Santi, Om
tintin
Yesterday, Saddam was sent back to his maker. He had been found guilty of the murder of some 184 al-Dujail residents. I am not questioning the facts of the accusation, and that Saddam was guilty as charged. But it is obvious, to me anyway, that this trial was just another example of the hypocrisy of the US Government. What about the more than 5,000 Kurds gased to death at Halabja ? This was certainly a greater crime. Why didn't he get judged for this crime, as the Kurds wanted so baddly? But I realize that' it is a dumb question on my part, as anyone with a little brain knows that had this trial taken place, Saddam would have revealed the US complicity in this atrocity, how the US Government, under Reagan, provided Saddam with "dual usage" chemicals to allow him to build his Tabun, Sarin, and other gases. American people could have learned in the process how Reagan first tried to have the Iranians blamed for this massacre. Saddam used the same gases against the Iranians, combatants and civilians, complements of the US Government also, but the Iranians never retaliated in kind. That did not seem to bother Reagan either.Saddam was hanged, but his only crime was that he lost his war against the USA.
Roy
Well "said" Daniel. As you point out, among Saddam's greatest crimes is that his flag was no longer red, white, or blue. I am no fan of Saddam, and it is clear that you are not either. However, this rush to silence him traverses justice in a manner that no democracy could ever support, if it calls itself a democracy.If this Iraq is an example of what Bush envisions as a democratic Iraq, then that country is most certainly doomed. Maybe Bush really meant it when the banner on the aircraft carrier he landed hailed "Mission Accomplished." It may be that none of us understood the true meaning behind, "mission." As you also point out, the only way our current presidential administration deals with unsavory issues is to sweep them under a rug. That leaves you, me, and countless other Americans wondering if our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights has been relegated to mere toilet paper. As I previously wrote, history will not be kind to Bush Jr. and its judgment of him will be painful for those Americans who embrace the essence of what America is about.
Jimbo
I hate the man but I was impressed by his dignity and courage at the point of death. I am not sure if I could do that.For some reason since his execution I have felt a sense of forboding.
JAMIE
Roy , I didnt know we were in an arguement ? ..Im against all killing of anykind in anyshape or form , period . Hanging Sadaam solves nothing if you ask me , and so far no "whip lash " from his hanging none has surfaced yet . I seem to remember during his sentencing , that its Iraqi law that demands a quick death ? I might be wrong on that ? I hope and pray that this year is the year we leave Iraq and lick our wounds . happy new year to all .
froggy
Im just wondering what they gave him to keep him that calm !!! he should have put up a little fight... mabey the same meds they gave me when I had a visectomy- as the smoke rose from my loin area- it really didnt bother me!! I know- too much information..... but really, he must have been on a slight sedative.... Frog
charlie
I'm with you Om Jimbo, foreboding ... it still gives me goose bumps thinking about it ...
Sparky
Happy New Year All, I dont think it will be a happy new year for the ordinary Iraqi who just wants some sort of order to his country. The timing of Saddams execution was always going to be difficult really and whether or not he should have been hanged so quick without being tried for other crimes against humanity is another point which would always be up for debate. Well Saddam could have stood trial for other crimes, but what would be the point as we all know he would have been found guilty and the end result would just be the same. The Iraqi people have known for decades how cruel Saddam was to people outside the Baath Party, as well as those in it who stepped out of line. I have read numerous books on the subject and converse frequently with Iraqi bloggers. If Saddam was to be tried for all his crimes against humanity then he would die of old age in the prisons, and the Iraqi people would never be able to close the chapter on him and look forward. Jimbo and as for Saddam facing death with dignity, well he did not as he was a mumbling wreck who was in shock more than being brave. I mean what more could he do really as he was doomed. I have to admit this folks that i thought Iraq was better being ruled with an iron fist, as the Iraqi people are a tribe people and were never going to be ruled by one man unless he did things the way he did. I think this has been proved with what is happening noe in the country. Saddam ruled the country for so long because he kept a watch on everyone by way of the Moukarabat secret agency. I have watched a video of how people were treated when they stepped out of line and was nearly sick at what was done to them. I mean for crimes that would get a little fine in the U.K. they were relieved of their limbs by way of placing them on a borad and a sword chopping them clean off. After i actually watched the short film on Youtube about Saddams cruel methods i have to say i think hanging him was to painless and quick. I can now understand what drives the Shia death squads who have infultrated the Police and Army in Iraq and go on riads into Sunnin households taking them away to be tortued and dumped. Yoe see something really bad had drived these people to look for revenge and before i watched this short film i thought they were barbaric thugs, but after i knew exactly how they could do it. I bet Saddam wished he had let the weapon inspectors look everywhere when he used to look out of the Rat hole he was living in when he got caught, across to his new the opulent Palace in Tikrit. I suppose he could have cut and run when he was given the chance to exit the country. I mean he could have emptied the bank of dollars and become a hero in Gaza where he ditributed money to familys of terrorists monthly and was worshipped. I dont think he honestly thought he would end up on the Gallows. Back in 1990 Gerge Bush senior was gunning for his head but the British were successful in putting him off that and getting him to unconditionally withdraw, because as bad as he was they wanted him kept alive for reasons you probably know those of you who are clued up on the subject.Anyway he is history now and will be burning for eternity with an everlasting pain that will not stop in hell, so justice has been done really.Sparks out
mimpimanis
Jamie - I know theres a full 12 months to go but on BBC news this morning they were saying USA is sending in more troops.
JAMIE
MIMI...Bush asked congress for more troops last week ! I thought after the last election Bush was told "get out of this war " by the voters . He even admitted to such ? Who knows whats gunna happen . jamie
tintin
Sparky,... and before i watched this short film i thought they were barbaric thugs, but after i knew exactly how they could do it.[/quote]WOW!!! I [u]must[/u] watch these "short films" myself and understand how and why blood-thirsty mobs grab most likely innocent men, young and old, and torture them to death, just because they have different ethnic and/or religious backgrounds. I, also, have thought, up to now, that these mobs were barbaric thugs, but in fact they must only be humanitarians groups on testosterones.As for ...[Saddam] burning for eternity with an everlasting pain that will not stop in hell [/quote] Says who? What is "eternity"? Even if Hell existed, is it in the same time frame as the Earth? Does time even exist in the Hell's frame? Burning? Why not freezing (see Dante, for example)? Since the human body stays and rots on earth, can a soul burn (or freeze)? Can it be made to suffer? Etc, etc. Maybe you should ask your priest, your rabbi, or your imam for some answers to these basic questions?
mimpimanis
I dont pretend to know anything about politics but I remember footage being shown in UK (shortly after I got together with Made) of Indonesian soldiers holding by the hair the decapitated heads of prisoners in East Timor. For a lot of friends & family in UK trying to explain this was a different island & a different world almost was a waste of time. Those pictures still haunt me, even though I am aware they were not taken at the time that we saw them but many years earlier.Years on, hard to believe though it may seem, the recent elections for Kepala desa resulted in riots & the death of at least two people in a small village 5/6km from Kuta. Not somthing that should worry toursists as it was a family feud between people going for KD but its amazing in this day & age that it can come to such an awful outcome.
Roy
Sparky writes, in typical form,"Well Saddam could have stood trial for other crimes, but what would be the point as we all know he would have been found guilty and the end result would just be the same."[/quote]The point Sparky is CLOSURE. The surviving families of all of Saddam's crimes against humanity DESERVE closure, and only through being tried, convicted, and sentenced once again could the Kurds, and others, ever find closure.So why this rush for Saddam's execution? Was the US administration way, way too worried what he may reveal in other trials? Or was the Iraqi provisional government worrying about the same...or both? The Americans have denied transference of Saddam to the Iraqis just a few hours before his execution, but we all know that in fact happened. Why do we continue to lie, lie and lie some more when it comes to Iraq? We are supposed to be in Iraq to install a democracy. That alone is subject to great question and debate. But, is being executed within two months of being sentenced to death the kind of democracy we Americans uphold?G W Bush Junior is the most despicable President the US has ever seen, and just one more apparent proof of that was his speech at the podium of President Gerald Ford's funeral earlier today. In a few days, Bush is almost certain to announce an increase of American troop presence in Iraq amounting to as many as 20,000. For those of you old enough to remember Vietnam, this is all getting way too sick, way too perverse, and way too able to tolerate.
matahari
Yesterday, Saddam was sent back to his maker[/quote] I find it hard to belive that there is any "maker" of Saddam... and if it would I find it even harder to belive that that incredible incompetent maker would ever take such an obviuos catastrophic failure back... on the other hand.. he could be an evil maker :evil: and than it would have been a really succesfull creation... hmm. Saddam is the past but is and will for long effect the world. The only thing we can do with the past is try to learn from it. what people need is to find a way to go on.. maybee the timing of the execution is delaying that for some.. And Roy, I totaly aggree with what you are writing about your president. Bush JR. has more than proven to be somewhat of a symbol for what is so wrong about the US and A =) But.. he shouldnt get to much "credit" he is just a puppet controlled by the super elite minority that is raping the world... Now dont get me wrong.,.. Im not putting all the blame on the US and A.. but they are surely a big player when it comes to the game of f ucking up the world. Rest with pest in the west...
froggy
Closure! hell if he had killed any one close to me I could care less if he was convicted of all the crimes he commited- the balanise have it right -- as to forget about things once they happened- and getting rid of him will help people have Closure faster than draggging him around on display for the years to come.....my 2 cents..... Frog
ChadM
I just couldn't possibly agree with you any more, [b]Roy[/b], in your comments about King George. Historians are already grappling on whether he's THE worst president in U.S. history, or just ONE of the worst. I figure another couple of years in office will erase all doubt. And yes, I've read the BBC reports that he'll announce a "troop surge," calling for more U.S. sacrifice (to say nothing of the slaughter of thousands more Iraqi civilians). Never mind that almost everyone advising Bush recommends AGAINST more troops. The early bumper stickers here in America had it right: "Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam." Keith Olbermann over at MSNBC has a decent commentary on the latest Bush's latest Iraq failure here:[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16442767/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16442767/[/url]
tintin
Froggy,What "closure?" Saddam's execution had nothing to do with closure. If it were so, what about closure for the Kurds who lost at Halabja, not 184 compatriots, but more than 5,000? Don't they deserve closure also? Instead, the rushed, illegal and unruly execution of a former U.S. ally after his conviction in a kangaroo court blurred the line between terrorist and terrorized as effectively as Saddam's own evil propaganda ever did. What you call "closure" is not justice, but "revenge." And I will not insist on the fact that some 15 months after the massacre of these 184 people, at al-Dujail, President Ronald Reagan sent Rumsfelt to Baghdad to make an alliance with Saddam (See a Rumsfelt's memo to this account, advocating the formation of such alliance).It is obvious that those deeply unsavory connections between Saddam and the US would have been exposed in any honest trial. Therefore, Bush administration diligently undermined any equitable judicial accounting of Saddam's criminality, right through his shamefully and illegally rushed execution. Bush declared that the execution was warranted because Saddam received a fair trial. Bush showed once more his contempt for international law and order by bypassing the international tribunal in The Hague, which is designed to handle such trials of national rulers. Instead he turned Saddam to the Shi'ites in the middle of a civil war. From the little I know, Saddam was guilty of "crimes against humanity," but this was never established in his trial, which was allowed to proceed even as his lawyers were being assassinated.This is just another example of Bush's Imperial America, which recognizes no boundaries of national sovereignty or any restraint of international law. Iraq did not posed any threat to the U.S. security, but was nevertheless conquered for a range of base motives, from oil plunder to industrial profits to naked political gain. This was in line with Saddam's genocidal invasion of Iran and greedy occupation of Kuwait. As for Roy's opinion that George W. Bush is the most despicable President the US has ever seen [/quote]it is right on the mark. Historical scholars agree on the two worst US Presidents: James Buchanan and Warren Harding. However, their mediocrity and corruption only affected the internal situation in the country. George W. Bush's domestic policies may be questionable, according to one's own political persuasions, but his foreign imperialistic policies will certainly qualify him as the WORST US President, hands down.PS. On Tuesday, January 2, I wrote Even if Hell existed, is it in the same [u]time frame[/u] as the Earth?[/quote]Shame on me, as a physicist. :oops: :oops: I should have written "in the same [u]inertial frame[/u]." (but I assume you saw the mistake and corrected appropriately :lol: ).
Sparky
Sorry my last post was not entirely right really in context of what went on at the execution and the way it was handled. Firstly i stated that Kimbo when he explained Saddam died with dignity was wrong as he was shell shocked, but i was wrong after looking at the execution and listening to the chants aimed at him by people such as one of the Ministers ointerior and some other lowlife thug (no better than Saddam) called Modtadr AL Sdr. When someone is facing deatch surely there was no need for thse vagabonds to tease him with pro-Sadr chants. Now i know why Saddam had to rule Iraq with an iron fist and keep an eye on the different tribes that all Iraqis are made up of. Saddam repeated Muck Face Sadrs name as if to say well who the hell is he. MuckSadr was the man the Americans wanted dead or alive 6 months back and who is now back in favour and along with Malaki is organising the murder of anyone with a Sunni name with the use of Death Squads (interior of Ministry commando) Also the game of footbsll which has been celebrated by Iraqis and really unifies the country has been banned along with many Business owners not in favour with Sadr. No time for games with the Sadr regime not wanting anyone to play because that way they could play to allah and also devote time worshipping Shia religion. Oh no no fun there, along with the extermination of anyone educated or in job posts where a brain is needed and which could also be dangerous against the vagabond regim.There has berm an exodus of millions of Iaqis and all of the best individuals academically so the country with end up with a lot of uneducated sheep who will never be a threat to Sadr and his Mehdi army vagabonds, Iran springs to mind here doesnt it, with the Black spud bags worn over the women and the odd man. Does the Taliban in AFghanistan ring any bells here folks? The very Taliban the U.s. are still tring to make extinct. Oh what a can of worms the Bush has opened. I tell you what bearing in mind the amount of people that have been blown to shreds and all sorts of other gruesome deaths within the more like million dead old Bush boy should be on the gallows.Many I raqis realise that unnder Saddam with the secular state life was at least liveable and kids go out without there heads being ripped off if they were the wrong religion and dogs heads stitched on only to be dropped off back outside the parents home. I could go on and on but just read some of the Iraqi blogs for the proper info about what is going on in the once proud rich country. Yes i am afraid Iraq had been conquered and divided to totally ruin the place Yes and killing Saddam was wise was it ? He who kept IRAQ AS Iraq and pointly refused the Americans offer to run off. Saddam warned that if he went Iraq would be ten times worse and the people would be prisoners under the Americans as long as Bush keeps those pipes pumping Iraqs plundered stolen Oil flowing in to pay for all those bullets bombs and all that are killing the once proud Iraqi.God bless the poor Iraqi and long may the Patriotic Resistance fight on to get their Garden of Eden back before it is crumbled finer than the desert Sands. :( :( Sparky
