Roy
I'm going to offer some personal views on this topic, and I most heartily ask any of my Muslim friends to immediately jump in and tell me where I am wrong.Islam di Indonesia is by far moderate. I see it as equally a God given guide for us humans as how to live in the best way we can, as also a guide to find peace after death.Islamic Indonesians do not attempt to force their religion on others. In fact, religious tolerance in this most highly Islamic popultated country in the world is hallmarked as the most tolerant. Given Indonesia's moderate Islamic views, the US has been woefully neglect by not embracing her as they did during the Vietnam War. Indonesia has been ignored by the current administration, and that is a sad fact. Recently forced to give up Tim tim, or East Timor, in the wake of dissent, Indonesia in fact gave up what she was asked to take on from Portugal, during the height of the Vietnam War, and communist phobia. And now Australia, who was given the "go ahead" from the then current American administration, is doing its best to farm the off shore natural gas and oil to be found off the shores of East Timor. Islam, and Islam in Indonesia, (which includes Bali) seems to share the same bad rap. While there are some very good reasons for criticism on both fronts, there are NO good reasons to classify Indonesia, or its greater Muslim population in some form of extreme designation as offered by the President of the United States, or his chosen foreign policy advisors. A very sad fact is that I know way too many Muslim friends that now chose to be quiet. While their guidance and insight would be most useful, they have chosen to keep their mouths shut, lest they find themselves trying to explain themselves from behind bars. The gradual, yet methodic alienation of the Islamic world is a real truth, and it is the worst fallout of the war in Iraq. If unchecked, and not addressed, it will have severe consequences, which are not suggested here as a threat, but rather, a reality. As I write this post, Americans are currently voting. With some very good luck, and the intervention of higher powers, a signal may in fact be sent to the White House. If that signal includes a message that it is time to put hate, anger, revenge, and retribution behind us, then we have all taken a giant step forward.
made marko
Hi Roy,and to ALL!sorry I've not been keeping up with the fora as much as I used to.Still here on the 'left' coast, usa;Where the ballots are mail-in(paper-trail) and the representives are liberal.Still, I dream of sending an absentee ballot from across the sea someday...
Roy
Made, you have been missed on this forum. Mats and I discussed this just a couple of days ago, and it is SO Balinese that you show up now again!Personally I hope that you are not just poking your head through an open door to say "hi" and then disappear once again.
made marko
Thank you Bli Roy,And hello to you as well, Mats.It has been a busy summer for me and I have had little time to spend here at Indra's internet cafe(if one must drop a name...) to pilfer the wireless signal.But now the rains have come and will stay for some months so you will indeed be hearing more of me to be certain.Perhaps it is the forboding I feel towards the judicial bickering that is sure to follow the result of today's(yesterdays) mid-term elections, or maybe the autumnal chill of the pacific northwest that makes me return to my friends here, but it is most likely that thing that is "SO Balinese" that once again whispers to me.Bali has not left my heart, and the members of the forum are as close as I am able to be there.I must do some catching up once more.
Jimbo
Welcome back Made, you have been missed. Back on topic for Roy.IMO Indonesia should be held up to the world as an example of moderate Islam. Apart from the odd fanatic (and all countries have them) I have never felt threatend by Islam in Indonesia.I also really like the the ideology of Pancasila which for me sums up how tolerant religious freedom is there. Long may it continue and long may the state remain secular for that is also the guiding point.
Thorsten
In July this year, I applied a sponsor letter to obtain a visa for a Balinese friend here in Germany.Nothing special so far, the only problem was the time schedule was a bit tight.I got surprised when I was told that Indonesia is rated as a "terror state" all over the European Union and that there is a waiting deadline before a visa can be issued!Best regards ThorstenPS: Long time not heard from you Made, hope you're fine and will make it finally to Bali!
rien.gluvers
Islam di Indonesia [/quote]I don't you can speak of this. Indonesia is such a large country with so many different people and believes, even within the Islam that it can never be right to speak about the Indonesian Islam.Islam in Aceh, Bali or Middle Java for example is not the same.
tintin
And what do you make of a country, the largest Muslim country in the world, whose national symbol is Hindu: Garuda?
SoonerInBali
Yes, for the most part the brand of Islam here in Indonesia is very tolerant. It's just not a big issue here to be friends, hang out, date amongst the various religions. Any guesses as to why it is VERY different that the brand that exists in the Middle East? We've had our colonization, we've had our share of beat downs, crisis, economic turmoil, etc.Extremism just doesn't survive here in Indonesia - it takes foreigners to ignite extremism...and now they're all on the run chased on by special military units!
CAP
I agree with Rien ,Roy is spouting off about something he knows nothing about,you should stick to being a Balinese lecturer.Unless you have lived in in the real RI world..........and I mean realy lived the everyday orang kecil lifestyle ,not just sat around with some trendies in Ubud you wouldnt have a clue what is happening in your beloved arcipeligo".Go and live amoungst the many levals of society that is Indonesia and you will see lots of different faces of this subject.From stoneing women for kissing in public........to total disrespect for womens rights......to full blown planned out brainwashing programs.And also the Pancacilla lot .......which I can tell is just in words.Want to see people opressed like leppers ,children who live under bridges.women too scard to talk out...people who have to sell their children to pay for hospital bills ,School roofs rotten with no chairs or tables ,Whole villiges submerged in toxic mud ? Then come back and start a religous rave Roy, then go live the real RI experience not just the one in your coccon half hippy lifestyle.
Sergio
Its important to make a distinction between Islam and Muslims. Islam is a "religion" - Muslims are "people". In other words, Islam (other than a few different sects) is the same world wide. There is but one Qur'an and it's teaching is very tolerant. As for Muslims, I find the vast majority of Muslims in Java and Bali to be very tolerant as well. However, as Rein pointed out, Indonesia is a large country and I would imagine some provinces are more tolerant than others.Sorry guys, I know were all talking about the same thing here but I think it's important to use the words "Islam" and "Muslims" in the right context.
drbruce
Well, it seems like CAP has had some very different experiences than I have in my 18 years in Indonesia. If CAP wants to read about Islam as it is lived in Indonesia, he (or she) may want to read some of my writings in my websites (Cyberbali.com or Sumbawa.org), or my blog (tropicalliving.blogspot.com) or here on the forum. I've actually never come across any of what he mentions. Thanks Allan for suggesting that he come up with some specifics - and please make them personal ones, not something that he has heard from someone else.As Sergio puts it, Islam as practised here is very tolerant. I live in a fairly conservative area in Sumbawa, and not only have I never seen what CAP mentions, but the everyday life in the village doesn't even closely resemble his fantasy. Women here have the same rights as men, they speak their mind, do business, and actually are quite bawdy when you get to know them. My Muslim neighborhood in Bali is pretty much the same. When I lived in Papua, same thing there too. So this is the reality that I see and live.Hey, have to run and work with those fanatical Muslims. Have a nice day.
CAP
Allen and Drbruce,im not going to state specifics or waste my time looking up links for you guys.I will simply ask if you a few simple questions:Have you lived as a local in Aceh or East Madura ?Have you been to 200+ schools in RI.?Do you know the figures for men who have a wife or two and a lover .?Have you seen the mud volcano inundateing a Village area bigger than Canbera.?Have you witnessed the teachings to the poor in East Java.?Have you witnessed the total lack of respect for Pancacilla ?I guess your answer is no or if Yes than good on ya for keeping ya head in the sand.Oh yes I appoligise for stateing stoneing I ment to say caneing.
Jimbo
I see that a brand of civil police are on the beat picking up "loose women" and stopping people selling/drinking alcohol in many parts of Java. The government is not stopping them although it is against the constitution.Maybe things are changing?
Sergio
Naturally, the largest Muslim nation in the world is going to have some extremists. I'm sure you can find small groups of extremists in every part of Indonesia.I was in a bar in Jakarta when a mob of about 50 extremist all dressed in white and armed with bats and machetes came in and ramsacked the place while the polices turned a blind eye. This happens a lot throughout Indonesia. I've had other encounters with extremists as well and you can often see them on the streets asking for donations to support their cause. Are their extremists in Indonesia? Of course! But they do not represent the vast majority of Indonesian Muslims.
Jim Thorpe
Interesting comments and I agree with you that every place has their extremists. I have been hearing that some of the problems that Muslims are having is that the extremists are taking over their mosques and running the more moderates out. Has anyone heard if this is happening in Indonesia?
Jimbo
The problem with moderates is that they stand by and let the extremists take over :-(
Sergio
The irony is that you need to fight extremism with extremism against extremism (fight fire with fire). Moderates are not extreme by nature so for the most part extremists have very little resistance. Also, I believe Muslims around the world, while they may not approve of the extremists message or ways, are every bit as frustrated with the way the west has handled this situation in the middle east (thousands of Muslims have died, and for what? The situation is worst then it was before). Without going into a debate about the Middle East, I think it does play a big part in why Muslims don't seem too enthusiastic about helping big brother (neither would I). The west [i]provokes[/i] extremism with their actions in the Middle East and then blame the Muslim community for not backing them by fighting against other Muslims?
Sergio
Oh and I didn't mean you Jimbo. When I refer to the West, I refer to the U.S.-led coalition and not the citizens of those countries. I love [i]people[/i] from any country, I just don't always agree with their administrations.
drbruce
It's not happening in the mosques that I frequent, but no doubt that there are mosques where extremists congregate. While I personally haven't witnessed any of this, you can see from the news that there is a small, but very vocal, group of hard core conservatives in Indonesia. But, as I said, I've never witnessed this on a personal basis. I do have several short stories, however, about the opposite.Just a quick story that I may have repeated once somewhere on this forum...A few years ago, a stranger wandered into the village asking somewhat vague questions about foreigners. Some neighbors reported this to me as they noted that they didn't want troublemakers in "our" village; I reported it to our security who reported it to the police. The poor guy was promptly picked up and interrogated. It turned out he was a traveling salesman.In a similar vein, during all the tension a number of years ago about "sweeping", people from my mosque in Bali stopped by the house one day to tell me that anyone coming into our neighborhood suggesting such a thing would be quickly taught a lesson about good relations between foreigners and Indonesians.The point is that people do take care of people here, and the good guys do have voices, albeit not as loud as the bad guys.
