Roy
Wow, it would seem I am being accused of plagiarism and of being unpatriotic all in the same post! :shock: :shock: :shock: Rafeal I assure you 100% that those words are mine, written just this morning and honestly expressing my thoughts of the current administration of the US. Yes, I am familiar with the poem "Defense of Fort McHenry," written by Francis Scott Key in 1814 during the war of 1812, which was a war in defense of British aggression against the United States. I always found it an historical oddity that it wasn't adopted as the national anthem under the title The Star-Spangled Banner until 1931, by an act of Congress. Patriotism comes in many forms my friend, including just criticism of the path one's homeland has taken in recent years. Questioning another person's patriotism under the guise of being a patriot is defeatist to all the principles under which the United States was founded.
Jim Thorpe
Rafael, I think you are barking up the wrong tree with Roy...His views are different than yours and sometimes mine but they are honest views to be debated not cast aside as unpatriotic. I believe Roy to be very proud of the United States, simply not proud of our current president. My best friend hates this president but that doesn't make him a bad citizen. Bert has been kind enough to allow us a bit of his forum to play on...not fight, even though sometimes it looks like it. The rules are pretty simple... Godwin rules apply. Solid debating with the intent to actually learn something gains extra points. Calling anyone names (unpatriotic without supporting documentation, killer, racist, Bush McCHIMP, homophobe, Islamophobe,nutwing, tinfoilhat brigader, plagarist, etc) loses points. If possible or appropriate, you supply links to the URL's that you are using. If something should not be said in public then you pm or e-mail the other person. Punctuation doesn't count and can't be used to put another person down. This is a multiple language forum where many posters don't speak English as their first language so we should encourage them not discourage them.....That just about covers it...
Jim Thorpe
Mark,Thrice asked and thrice denied. *sigh*I see that you are having difficulty knowing what is right or wrong and that perplexes me. One of the major considerations in finding a person criminally insane is if the person has the ability to decide right from wrong. [url="http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/hinckleyinsanity.htm"]http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... sanity.htm[/url]So is it that you can't tell the difference or you refuse to make a decision?So are you in such a moral quicksand that you can't take a stand on anything? Not even to say that slavery is bad? You seem to like poetry and your responses bring an old poem to mind, one of the first I learned as a boy:"The Distracted CentipedeA centipede was happy quite,Until a frog in funSaid, "Pray, which leg comes after which?" This raised her mind to such a pitch, She lay distracted in the ditchConsidering how to run."Perhaps you should think on this and your ability to see what is right and wrong.
Mark Wales
Thanks for the brickbats. The enlightening conversation, the accusations flying thick and fast. The question and perceptions of slavery, patriotism and personal freedom. If some of you really feel so strongly about theseviews and that the world really needs all the change , then go out and change it. Go to all countries you so animately talk about and work there to help the people to realise "your perceptions" of the world and how it ought to be. I shall be with you scuttling behind like my street dog-Laxmi!Yes I agree with all of you. Everyone is right. Just a suggestion - read Ghosh's Diary of his short stay in Iraq. The latest TIME has readers comments. I couldn't but feel sick in the stomach. It reminded me of the time my father lost his business partner to a roving group of Naxals(communists uprising in Calcutta in the early 70s) he was hacked down in the street. Yes I agree with all your views. Everyone is right including thePresident of Iran - read his interview - a dangerous mind TIME latest issue.
Jimbo
Go to all those countries and try to change them WOW what a statement. In many of those countries there is not even free speech for their own let alone a do gooder foreigner. It is neither practical nor will it achieve much. I have lived and worked in 41 countries and have changed only in a small way the thinking of people who I have met and in many cases not at all do to speaking out of turn could cost me my life.Today I am in the Yemen where yesterday they had a Far better to pressurise one's own government to use their power to change.
Jimbo
cont. election. What did I do to influence this.......nothing. I hid in my hotel room all day as they were killing people out side. The opposition were fighting abot corruption in the present government. I did nothing.....very wisely in my wifes opinion because she believes I should look after me and mine before going out crusading (no puns intended) for others.
Jimbo
Just as an aside slavery was finally abolished by the muslim kingdom of SA in the early seventies.....Just a thought as is the muslim domination of slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries.Lots of cartoons showing the pope as Hitler in local middle east papers. Care for a boycott or worldwide uproar.Bah Humbug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roy
Thanks Jim for your support and thanks Rafael for your retraction. Jimbo, I hope you are out of Yemen soon.
irma1812
[b]Re: RE: Pope Benedict and Muslim Reactions[/b]You know, the one question that haunts me more than the others is "Why would any young person choose to turn themself into a human bomb". I have not been able to settle on any of the glib answers. I guess I will never know because I am not one of them. [/quote]This is the one question that haunts me the most too Norm! Maybe it's because of the way they've been "brainwashed" since they're born? Who knows. But there are more & more western countries "home-grown" extremists, WHY?!?! :?
Tony
"Have some patriotism for your country man and dont deny the facts of war and occupying forces in any 'sovreign country'. If you remember one thing remember that Iraq and the middle east were having serious problems way before the first CIA operatives entered Iraq in 2002. Do you still remember how to sing the star spangled banner and remember the words in it? Your fore fathers fought for freedom and liberty for all people in the greatest nation on earth, but yet you seem to have this 'willy nilly' attitude about a country that you should be grateful to have been born in. There is a lot you need to learn and be grateful for, son. ...."in the land of the free and the home of the brave." Amen![/quote]"I didnt mean to come across condescending either..."That last statement is quite hilarious, given the previous quote of your's above. Not only was it condescending...but equally offensive. You have obviously been coached in the finer points of public relations and human discourse by your self-proclaimed "good friend", Senator "Maccaca" Allen.You've had a lot to say around here for the past couple of weeks. On virtualy all of it, I disagree and precious few facts seem to support. That said...no one here, including myself, has called your understanding of global politics into question in such a way as you have just called out other's and their patriotism. Blaming it on the drink is a cop out.Now that I have most likely insulted you, allow me to take the opportunity to also thank you for your previous service to your country. Let me also remind you that patriotism, at least in the USA, first found form in the revolutionary attitudes and actions of those demanding accountability and representaion from their former leaders. That spirit remains strong today with many of us who question the direction of the USA and it policies, as someone else said previously, very selective policies, when it comes to spreading and attempting to enforce some semblance of democracy around the globe. The current leadership has made many extreme attempts to label disagreement or calls for transparency & accountability as unpatriotic. They are WRONG.In many parts of this great big world, people have very little experience with personal freedom after generations of being told what to think, what to read,how to act, etc... As a result, they are ill prepared for the responsibilities that come with the freedom of living within a democratic state. I will point to Indonesia as a prime example of this theory, since we ARE on a forum that pertains to BALI. Attempts at bring/enforce democracy via military action, in these cases, are surely doomed in the short term. I can think of no examples in recent or distant history where the long term has proved successful either. Still, my mind remains open and I anxiously await the next opportunity for you to take glass in hand, press fingers to keyboard and save me from my igorance.
Roy
Maybe I can mediate here a little bit, and hopefully do so without appearing to be making excuses for Rafael or patronizing him. Personally, I tend to cut Vietnam vets a whole lot of slack when it comes to discussions of politics and the past and present role of the US military. Many of those men and women never came home to the hero's welcome and ticker tape parades that my dad and uncles did after WWII. Rather, many of the Vietnam vets came home to cries of "baby killer" and "murderer." I can't imagine how that must have felt, particularly for the non career military personnel who made up the vast majority of the forces during the Vietnam War. These were just everyday young men and women, most of the men having been drafted into service, and they did serve, only to come home and be criticized. As I stated in another post, I have many friends who were veterans of that war. One in particular was a second lieutenant Marine at Khe Sanh in 1968, who lost his entire platoon. He was the only survivor of his platoon that he commanded. To this day, he constantly wrestles with guilt, depression and alcoholism. Every Memorial Day he visits the wall, and every year he writes to all the families of his platoon...seeking their forgiveness. I've read many of their replies, and of course they have all forgiven him, moreover, they pray for him just as they do their lost sons, brothers and husbands. The issue is, he can not forgive himself. Most Vietnam vets that I'm close to have that same inner struggle between what they know should be the satisfaction and pride that comes with service, and a nagging guilt for having done so. Many that I know have never been able to answer the question, "why?"In many respects, it is the surviving vets, especially those who actively engaged in combat, that are the living casualties of the Vietnam War. They live with the demons from that war daily, and time has not healed many of them. For many, their only source of solace is with other Vietnam vets. Once again, I'm not making excuses for Rafael, but I can understand his point of view, and where he may be coming from. Some of the most outspoken critics of the current war in Iraq in Congress are Vietnam vets. Then again, some of the strongest supporters are also Vietnam vets. That makes sense to me, as in the end, each man and woman who was there has to find their own way of resolving this inner conflict, or they remain like my friend, the Marine second lieutenant. As for my friend, he is a staunch critic of current American foreign policy, especially as that policy seems to often put young men and women in harm's way for nothing. As he would put it, he doesn't wish his life on anyone, unless there are damn good reasons, clear objectives and complete support of the American people, as in the first Gulf War to free the people of Kuwait. As for Rafael, I hope he would agree that opinions within his veteran comrades differ, likely, just as they do here in the opinions already expressed. That's OK in my book. That's just part of the human experience. Ideally, this expression of varied opinions makes us wiser...if we listen to them.
Tony
No mediation necessary, Roy. I've had my say and that's that. Now the sleeping dog shall lie...Perhaps my ire was provoked beyond reason and perhaps not. The truth is, every time I turn on a television, a radio, pick up a newspaper, read an internet forum, etc., I am subjected to a whole gaggle of screeching waterheads proffering opinion & foaming at the mouth, on & on about how much safer the world is now thanks to you know who. By god...if that's the claim your gonna drill us with, show me the data...the factual data to back it up. Believe me, I've looked for any factual evidence from the news around the globe to support this claim and can find none, zero, zilch...OK...fangs are now retracted, my venom gland drained...Over & out... anybody want to discuss Bali? That is, afterall, what we come here for, isn't it? Most of us at least...?
Roy
OK...fangs are now retracted, my venom gland drained... [/quote] :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Better to keep your positive energy fixed on Bali....a PM to follow.
Mark Wales
Is a culture that values slavery better or worse than a culture that is against it? It shouldn't be that hard of question to answer[/quote]Dear Refael,I suppose u have been to college. thereforeyou will know what "culture" means. So when u keep harping on the merits and demerits of Cultures that value/don't value slavery, I am confused. What is the difference between your perceived utopian world where slavery has been abolished (which in actual fact is flourishing under the garb of under-paid illegal immigrants entering your country from Mexico and wherever)(isn't this a burning issue in your form of Parliament today?)Andany other culture that does not practice but is trying desperately to curtailit. Sadly my own country is fighting the horrible practice of child labour.There are NGOs working in parts of India and the media highlights this quite often. I don't mean to be nasty in anyway. I am trying to understand what you mean by "culture". From your posts it appears you have confused culture with religion and regional demarcations.Incidently where am staying in Bali, there is a Mexican Artist whom I had the honour of meeting. Hearing him speak about poor Mexicans crossing into the land of milk and honey and being exploited by employers is heart-rending. So Dear Rafeal, before launching into soap box oratory think about what';s happening in your own back yard. "cultures" as u so losely put it are more complex than the school boy views that you have.Namaste
Bert Vierstra
Gentlemen and Schoolboys,Please don't become personal, and try to win arguments by using your own definitions for common terms.
Mark Wales
Bert wrote :That's It !! [/quote]I suppose we needed the moderator to keep us on track as I suddenlyrecall the topic was "Pope Benedict and Muslim reactions"! SorryBert, we seem to have digressed from sanity. And sorry Refael that youseem so upset and personal. I understand that some of us get upset whenour perceptions are challenged by people of lesser cultures. But that'show the cookie crumbles.Namaste!
Jimbo
MarkI am rapidly coming to the stage where I do not like you. You twist words around and put them in others mouths to try and prove what?You have no monopoly on truth just your own view point which to me seems distorted to say the least shaped by what is obviously (to me) an inverted racial predudice."I understand that some of us get upset when our perceptions are challenged by people of lesser cultures. But that's how the cookie crumbles. "What do you mean here? Accusing the writer of being upset by a person of lesser culture is saying he is predudiced. Where did he say this or even intimate it?I think you need to move on with your life and stop attributing discussion to implied racial stereotypes. Or have I got it all wrong?
Roy
Back on topic, it seems the pope has apologized multiple times...three at last count, but this has not satisfied some the more conservative elements of the Islamic community.Yesterday while watching the news, my wife commented, "what do they want him to do....commit suicide?" One has to applaud the pope's patience and desire to embrace the Islamic leaders in a dialogue at the Vatican. I hope those leaders of the Islamic faith embrace this opportunity for frank and open dialogue in the same spirit as the pope offered. Who knows? This could be ground breaking diplomacy and dialogue at its best, and surely at a time when it is most needed.
Mark Wales
Dear Jimbo,Mark I am rapidly coming to the stage where I do not like you. You twist words around and put them in others mouths to try and prove what? You have no monopoly on truth just your own view point which to me seems distorted to say the least shaped by what is obviously (to me) an inverted racial predudice. "I understand that some of us get upset when our perceptions are challenged by people of lesser cultures. But that's how the cookie crumbles. " What do you mean here? Accusing the writer of being upset by a person of lesser culture is saying he is predudiced. Where did he say this or even intimate it? I think you need to move on with your life and stop attributing discussion to implied racial stereotypes. Or have I got it all wrong[/quote][/quote:c2dxtse1]Thanks for your post. sorry that you have begun to dislike me.But what irked me is when Refael said that some cultures are betterthan others. There exists no invert racism in me. Therefore whenreplying I assumed brevity would be the source of understanding andnot misundertsanding. And as you have begun to dislike me for bitter or worse I shall stop posting anymore replies on this forum so as not to inadvertently offend anyone.peace man and namaste.
Bert Vierstra
And as you have begun to dislike me for bitter or worse I shall stop posting anymore replies on this forum so as not to inadvertently offend anyone. [/quote]Come on...There is no need for that....
