Bert Vierstra
[b]RE: To all who lost a loved one ..[/b]9/11 was a horrible event.For me the [i]aftermath[/i] of 9/11 changed my world. I used to believe that the US were a good thing for the world, but the controverse surrounding the events, and some obvious lies from the US government have made me loose my confidence that the US is such a good thing for the world, and movies and documentaries about 9/11 that show only the "offcial point of view" make me feel that "1984" and "A Brave New World" are no longer fiction.More then 50% of the US public now believes that there was some sort of cover-up and I hope that the people of the US will be persistent enough to get the truth to surface.
JAMIE
[b]RE: To all who lost a loved one ..[/b]...Whats your point ? This string was started by me (and for me) to honor all those killed in 911 , and the families of those innocent people . I feel that your comments belong somewhere else , please start another string ," crappy crap that the USA does to the world " and Ill join in and give you some things that bother me too ! Please have the dignity to honor those lost in 911 , that was the idea I had in mind .
Bert Vierstra
My point is, that I don't know anymore why or how those people were killed.It started when I saw a convincing documentary about the 757 that supposed to have struck the Pentagon. After seeing this, I think that there was no 757 that struck the Pentagon, but something else.That makes one plane missing, where did it go?After my doubts about this event, the rest followed.Flight 93, same thing. Not very convincing material to prove it went down there where they said it went down. Another plane missing.Towers and buildings collapsing by themselves? Not very likely.The implications of explosives being present in the WTC before the planes hit them ???More recent: Did the US government lie about their secret CIA prison camps to European governments?
Jim Thorpe
Bert, there is a good book that just came out addressing these questions. It was put together by the editors of Popular Mechanics, a publication that is not known for it's politics. If you are not familiar with the magazine, it has been around for about a hundred years and deals mainly with nerdy type stuff: cars, future airplanes, building the world's largest dam etc.. The name of the book is "Debunking 9/11 Myths: Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand Up to the Facts". This may answer some of your questions regarding 9-11. Of course, there are still people that believe that the U.S. did not land on the moon and it was/is a hoax, so if a person is a true believer in the 9-11 conspiracy then nothing will change their minds. A major problem I have with the conspiracy is that I know my team at work can't keep a secret if it kills them and we are to believe that hundreds of people in multiple governments have kept this secret. If you can get a higher speed connection, here is a "debate" between the writers of one of the 9-11 conspiracy movies and the editors of Popular Mechanics. Listen for yourself and see who actually has the facts on their side...[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-901683049872134071"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9872134071[/url]
Jim Thorpe
Here is an interesting report that gives you the level of analysis that we are dealing with...On conspiracy side we have organizations such as Scholars for 9/11 Truth [url="http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/PressRelease30Jan2006.html"]http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Pres ... n2006.html[/url] that present their evidence. But on deeper analysis you discover that the scholars are pretty skimpy on hard science scholarship. There is actually only 2 engineers in the group the majority being philosophers, even these two have some concerns. I use this group because it has recently been in the news. Compare it to the Popular Mechanics people and scholars studies like this:[url="http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0203feat.html"]http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonl ... 3feat.html[/url]A politician in America once said " You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts." The majority of the facts seem to point toward these events actually happening. Also, it certainly seems by the videos that Bin Laden thinks he did it. So if he didn't then there is another group of people that have to be in the conspiracy.
Tony
Conspiracy theories aside...The very voracity and urgency, not to mention untruths & propaganda put forth by US leaders to justify the invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam certainly has now muddied the waters of moral authority claimed by the US in it's "war on terrorism". UN weapons inspectors, knowledgeable individuals in the US intelligensia, diplomatic corps and military all argued caution which was summarily ignored. Rafael now states the the president has backed away from previous claims that Iraq was linked to al Queda and the attacks of 9/11. This is true...during the past two weeks, Herr Bush has backed away from that arguement. Unfortunately, VP Cheney, WH spokesperson Tony Snow and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld have been out this week relentlessly reflogging that tired horse and publicly trying to make the case that indeed, Iraq was somehow connected the those attacks.Add to this murky stew the president's all out war on the Geneva Convention as it pertains to the detainment and interrogation of prisoners of war and the concerns Bert shares in this thread seem wholly justified. One need not toss in conspiracies to the mix to get the feeling that all is not right.To claim loudly that any individual, group or country has moral authority to wage war on another requires that superior morality to be both obvious and beyond reproach. Secret, undisclosed foreign prisons, the Specter bill currently before the congress further erodes that authority based on any reasonable sense of morality.If the US sinks to the level of the terrorist mind in it's approaches to dealing with the terrorist threat, then the war is already lost...[/img]
Roy
Conspiracy theories are as American as mom and apple pie. Many Americans still believe that Oswald did not act alone in the Kennedy assassination and we should expect that conspiracy theories involving 9/11 will abound in American culture for the rest of time.Rafeal, the DOD footage from the parking lot of the Pentagon was not movie, but rather time sequenced and as you say, the plane is not visible. During CNN coverage of the 9/11 five year anniversary earlier this week, this cruise missile theory was fully addressed by CNN. Previously unreleased photographs of the grounds directly in front of the impact area clearly shows aircraft wreckage, although not very large pieces, as well as the light polls which were clipped and brought down by the 757's wings as it approached the pentagon. No missile on that approach to the Pentagon could have brought down those lamp posts. The most compelling evidence against this having been a cruise missile, or any other type of missile, is the explosion itself, which is caught on the DOD parking lot film very well. This is clearly a fuel explosion and not the kind of explosion one would see from a explosive warhead. Moreover, no amount of fuel could be loaded onto a cruise missile to account for the extensive fire ball that immediately erupted upon impact. The most compelling film I have seen on 9/11 is Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911. In that film he raises a lot of questions that are still unanswered...like why on the day after were all the members of the Bin Ladin family in the US flown back to Saudi Arabia on either private or commercial aircraft? Several FBI agents on that film point out that as part of a standard investigation, they would have liked to interview some of the Bin Laden family members. Moore raises plenty of other good questions as well, and this film is definitely worth checking out.
Roy
Bert, you ask,"Did the US government lie about their secret CIA prison camps to European governments?"[/quote]You bet they did, and they have lied about many aspects surrounding the war in Iraq...WMD's being just one. That's the crux of the problem that Americans have to face, like it or not. The credibility of the US is in GREAT jeopardy around the globe....and that is not the way it should be.Bush Jr. has done more to destroy the great image of a great nation than any of his processors could have thought possible. History will not be kind to him, and I sure hope he doesn't waste any tax payer's money on a Bush Jr. Library unless he calls it the Chamber of Lies.
Bert Vierstra
[b]Re: RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World[/b]If you can get a higher speed connection, here is a "debate" between the writers of one of the 9-11 conspiracy movies and the editors of Popular Mechanics. Listen for yourself and see who actually has the facts on their side...[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-901683049872134071"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9872134071[/url][/quote]I just watched it.I didn't find the Popular Mechanics guys convincing.I am just a layman, but in my eyes those towers could not have collapsed they way they did, without any help.I am not the guy fancying conspiracy theories, but Loose Change gives me serious doubts.[url="http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=loose+change"]http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=loose+change[/url]Even if only half of Loose Change or Fahrenheit 911 is true, people should be scared like hell of the US being a "superpower".I cannot help to think about Loose Change and its implications, when I see another (Hollywood) (b) movie where the (Muslim) Arabs play the bad guys...., It makes me puke...Anyway this site is doing its best to "debunk" the Loose Change Movie:[url="http://www.loosechangeguide.com/"]http://www.loosechangeguide.com/[/url]And this is the Loose Change site:[url="http://www.loosechange911.com/"]http://www.loosechange911.com/[/url]
Jimbo
I do not know about conspiracy theories but a headline yesterday in the Arab News took my eye about the 10's of thousands who died in Iraq since the war ENDED and how they also should be remembered.Although 9/11 is a great tradgedy it is being repeated in a different format all around the world. All of which makes me despair at mans inhumanity to man.As Roy says there are always theories including some who say the holocaust never happend.When will we all learn that violence only begets violence. Until we do we are lost.
JAMIE
Im not trying to highjack the string but.. Roy your are so right saying George Jr has set this countries "creds" back in the toilet . I know every one I know cant wait for the Pres. election, do you (Roy) vote in the USA election ? Mail in ?
DCC
The answer to your question Rafeal is simple - ANY President that would have kept his focus on Bin Laden and his group and not wasted time, money, and, most importantly, lives, in pursuit of a personal war on Sadam. And the result - a major excuse for further attacks against the West, America in particular - a hot bed for international terrorism - and the lost respect of nearly all Nations who offered their support following 9/11. The world is not a safer place!Militarily the war in Iraq has been a joke (thanks to Rumsfeld), and is inexcusable after the folly in Vietnam. And I say that as the proud son of Lt. Col. Guy F. Collins, USAF, shot down and killed in action 3/13/68. American military action should be used when no other option is an option. The hunt for Bin Laden and the attack on the Taliban, I believe, was justified, but the objectives were not met and now look at what's happening there due to inadequate commitment.
Roy
Ah, Rafeal, I do love a challenge, and so I will take this to be one:"if his creds should be thrown in the toilet then name a past president that you think could do a better job after such an devastating attack like 9/11 or the attacks in Bali."[/quote]Top on my list would be Abraham Lincoln. Second on my list would be Franklin D. Roosevelt. Third, would be John F. Kennedy. Each of these great past Presidents guided the United States through its darkest times, and they each did so with great personal sacrifice. Those men were leaders...true leaders who were able to galvanize the nation in a just pursuit. Both were also great statesman, more willing to avoid war than to embrace it. Bush Jr. doesn't deserve to have his name on the same list as these three men...and I haven't even begun to discuss George Washington, the father of our country. Do you think any of these past Presidents would have sat there, in an elementary school room, looking like a jacked deer once told the US was under attack? Rafeal, neither Lincoln, FDR, or JFK were assumed to be great men when they were elected to the oval office. Faced with the daunting challenges of their time, they became great men as a result of their courage and honest commitment. All Americans expect heroic attributes from their president, be they from farm fields or Harvard. None of those names I raised however, EVER showed up dressed in military uniform, as did Bush Jr. to address the troops. Mission Accomplished! That was sick, truly sick, and it was an outrageous signal to the rest of world that I'll bet to this day, Bush Jr. doesn't understand. DCC...some common ground is what I think we are standing on right now. Boy! That's a change! :P
DCC
Absolutly Roy, but also I see Rafeal's new avatar (spelling?) - and I'm a longtime Skins fan :-).
Jimbo
RafealDo not attribute words or phrases to my comments that are not mine. I said nothing about who was responsible (even though your assumptions are still incorrect) I was merely pointing out that the deaths of others in the present conflicts should also be remembered.......not just the ones of 9/11 as was stated in the Arab news.
JAMIE
RAFREAL ..just some bacvkground on me , Im a registered republican , I loved bush 1 Im not in love with bush 2 ..I feel DCC 's post is spot on and he has taken some word rite from my mouth ..further I feel Bush's right wing christian stance (aka "faith based " policies") has no place in government at all. I get the feel that we are trying to spread democracy in the middle east In an effort to calm the whole area down . We were lied to on "WMD'S' and there is no end in sight in IRAQ , and that scares me . To take a thought from Jimbo , Im sick of being the watch dog of the world ,Im sick of being blamed for being the watch dog of the world ,Im sick of the world questioning freedom , Im sick of the "PC" mentality over every little thing in every little way ...im just sick and tired !!!
