Jimbo
If you read the ten commandments you can iterpret them to be as extremist as you like. The law is just that. In itself it is not extreme. For example all women here have to be covered up. That is not the law but is local custom.Many people think that Sharia law says this but it does not. It is the interpretaion and the application by those who are extreme not the law itself.As for the economies that are doing well under Sharia law you can look it up on the internet. That way there is no need for arguments :-)
rhondo
:) Roy much of what we see where these countries want sharia law is a reaction to the massive amounts of corruption they see.[u][b] It is a reaction[/b][/u]. Whay we see with the Taliban is the same kind of perverted, heanus corruption in the name of Radical Islam, but is just radical and has much to do with mans behavior and little to do with Islam.The more radical ways of doing this cast too wide a net and rapidly become as corrupt and more heanus than what they replaced. A system of law with a fair judiciary that is not corrupt would be a good start , but what we see is, globally we cannot legislate morality. If I want to cheat and lie , I can.
Roy
Jimbo, you wrote, For example all women here have to be covered up. That is not the law but is local custom. Many people think that Sharia law says this but it does not. It is the interpretaion and the application by those who are extreme not the law itself.[/quote]By "here" I take it that you mean in Saudi Arabia? My understanding is that Saudi Arabia has adopted Sharia Law which requires a specific dress code for both men and women. Also, [i]"Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure Sharia law and enforce the penalties for Hadd offences. Within sharia law, there is a specific set of offences known as the Hadd offences. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand."[/i][i]"Hadd offences carry specific penalties, set by the Koran and by the prophet Mohammed. These include unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage); false accusation of unlawful intercourse; the drinking of alcohol; theft; and highway robbery. Sexual offences carry a penalty of stoning to death or flogging while theft is punished with cutting off a hand."[/i]My only point Jimbo, is that Sharia Law can only be interpreted as extreme, especially when the civil laws of any country are based on Sharia Law. Any law that violates basic human rights is extreme. How anyone could interpret the ten commandments as extreme is beyond me, so I was surprised you brought them up. Anyway, within Islam there is a strong movement against Sharia Law. You can find that web site here: [url="http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html"]http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html[/url]An interesting quote from it reads:[i]"The Sharia should be opposed for its imposition of theocracy over democracy, its abuse of human rights, its institutionalized discrimination, its denial of human dignity and individual autonomy, its punishment of alternative lifestyle choices, and for the severity of its punishments." [/i]That sounds like a pretty good description of the word, "extreme" to me.
Roy
Rhondo, you wrote:Roy much of what we see where these countries want sharia law is a reaction to the massive amounts of corruption they see. It is a reaction.[/quote]There may be some truth to that, but I don't believe it is the norm. In many Islamic countries where Sharia Law is in place, it has been so for a very long time.When Aceh was able to include Sharia Law as part of its partial autonomy deal with Jakarta a little over three years ago, it was proactive and not reactionary at all. In fact, Aceh initially wanted Sharia Law to apply to ALL people, including Christian Acehnese. Jakarta prevailed on that issue, thus it only applies to Acehnese Muslims.
Jimbo
There is nothing in your examples that could not be applied to christianity or indeed buddism. Such punishments are only carried out under the most extreme circumstances and not just for a first offence. Little bit like the three strikes and your out rule in parts of the USA. Here you can spend your life in jail for 3 minor offences. I am not here to defend anything but only to point out that all religions have their laws. You only have to take Christianty during the inquisition or the fact that extreme Judaisim killed Christ or the sacrifices made in the name of many religions.Thow shalt not kill was once explained to me by my priest as to mean even having violent thoughts. Remember having to confess to having impure thoughts when you were a catholic?Thow shal not committ adultery because it is a mortal sin ring any bells. If you die with a mortal sin (including not going to church on a Sunday) you go straigt to hell with no second chances. All sounds pretty barbaric unless you explain.Same with the Sharia which is a way to live your life not extremisim.To continue "What is meant by Human rights" You have the right to live and the right to die. How you get from A-B depends on an awful lot of factors most of which are outside our control.Enjoy :-)
Roy
I have no disagreement with what you just wrote Jimbo. However, when Sharia Law works its way into the civil laws of a country, then I see a big problem. Sharia is not just a way for a devote Muslim to live their lives...it is much more than that. I don't see Catholics, Buddhists, Jews or Hindus forcing their way of life on others, nor do I see any of those religions having the power to enforce or punish anyone for transgressions against their teachings or beliefs.Sorry Jimbo, but you are not going to convince me that Sharia Law is not extreme. In any event we can agree to disagree and call it simply that. Have a good evening...and be sure to keep your single malt out of sight...as it is a violation of Sharia Law and I'd hate to see you getting twenty whacks with a cane! :P :P
Roy
Staying on topic, last night Eri and I watched an interesting, and somewhat chilling debate aired on RCTI between conservative and moderate Muslim leaders as well as a spokesperson for one of the main women's rights groups.The debate was focused on the pros and cons of expanding Sharia Law into more of the Regencies within the Provinces of Indonesia. Currently, 36 of the 241 Regencies within the 27 Provinces of Indonesia have enacted Sharia Law. These areas include Sumatra, Sulawesi and Java. That is a startling 14% of all the Regencies in Indonesia! What was not clear, is how many of those Regencies have also adopted Sharia courts. This growth of Shariaism within Indonesia has the majority moderate Muslims understandable alarmed. This growth also has alarmed those organizations who work diligently to preserve and protect women's rights, as much of their freedoms, otherwise available to them in the other 86% of Indonesian Regencies, are not afforded them. And, just for the record, I counted the word "ekstrem" used over twelve times by the moderates, who clearly view Sharia Law as extreme no matter how you slice it, dice it, or serve it up on a platter.
Jimbo
Alcohol has not touched my lips for almost 5 months. I am going home on Thursday and have my birthday to look forward to celebrating (Its today as well as my sons graduation) so........61 today....61 today.... now I have the key of the door ....never been 61 before :-) :-)
charlie
Happy Birthday Jimbo !!!! Wishing you all the best and a great trip home ...
Roy
Yes! Happy Birthday Jimbo! Have a great trip and let us know how your party went. Please don't dry to make up for those 5 dry months all in one day! :P :P :P
jogry blok
Happy happy birthday Jimbo. Enjoy your time with your family.
drbruce
Happy birthday Jimbo and have a great trip home. We're in Bali now visiting relatives and letting the kids have a break from living in the jungle.
jogry blok
recently while watching an interview with a well known scientist, who asked,'God make the world, what was God doing before this? :wink:
Jimbo
Answering questions like this and making the rest of the universe :-)
pinkbali
[b]Re: RE: Women caught in a more radical Indonesia[/b]I have no disagreement with what you just wrote Jimbo. However, when Sharia Law works its way into the civil laws of a country, then I see a big problem. Sharia is not just a way for a devote Muslim to live their lives...it is much more than that. I don't see Catholics, Buddhists, Jews or Hindus forcing their way of life on others, nor do I see any of those religions having the power to enforce or punish anyone for transgressions against their teachings or beliefs.[/quote]i kind of agree. there are already jihadists that are celebrating the homecoming of the bali bombers. plus imposing head scarve laws for all women would mean that even non-muslim women like myself would have to wear one. you would never see other religions imposing such laws.
FreoGirl
[b]Re: RE: Women caught in a more radical Indonesia[/b]plus imposing head scarve laws for all women would mean that even non-muslim women like myself would have to wear one. you would never see other religions imposing such laws.[/quote]Seeing as this topic has been resurrected, and to play devil's advocate here, I have to disagree.In Islam, it is considered modest for a woman to wear a head scarf, also to wear clothing that does not define the body.In a similar way, Christianity also forces their own ideas of modest dress upon women, and men too.In predominantly Christian countries women are forced to cover their breasts. It is perfectly fine for men to walk around with no shirt on, but women cannot. This is so ingrained into our belief systems that we don't even see it as modesty principles coming from the Christian religion. But it is.In Hindu Bali, before the English imposed their Christian morales, women went topless and it was prefectly fine to do so.Until the 1960's it was obligatory for Catholic women to cover their heads in church. It was only when they 'modernized' the service that the requirement was dropped. Plenty still do though. There also still remains European sects of the Christian church that require women to wear scarves, cover their legs etc etc. 80 years ago a nice girl [i]never[/i] went in public without a hat on.Christianity imposes the modesty standard that forbids men and women to go naked in public. Yet in some non-Christian cultures, nudity can be quite normal.You might say that exposing the breasts in public is not the same as exposing your head in public, but that is just your belief systems that have been ingrained into you through your Christian dominated culture speaking.The act of covering your body in a Christian dominated culture is no different from covering your head in a Muslim dominate culture. Where the difference lays is in what you are familiar with. Just as our Christian based laws do not allow us to expose our breasts, Muslim based laws do not allow women to expose their heads.I'm not saying that I personally would like to be forced to wear a hijab (although I have, and it is a surprisingly liberating experience). But I am disagreeing that Islam is the only religion that 'forces' modesty standards upon women.
Dasha
Touche Freo girl WELL DONE
froggy
Sorry Freo I think your way off--Yes, modesty is asked for in christian cultures but it is not "Law", but you wont be taken out back and flogged!!!! so no you are not forced as you say, you can go topless all you want here in the U.S. youll just get a ticket- (mabey not if they are perky enough!)....but a ticket is far from how they are forcing rules, like with a Big stick!!
FreoGirl
Froggy, flogging women for the way they are dressed is an extreme Taliban type situation. They also flogged men for not wearing a beard. And women under the Taliban had to wear a lot more than a hijab. In normal Islamic countries no-one is taken out the back and flogged for not wearing a head-scarf.Modesty in Christian cultures IS law, the very fact that you can get a ticket for breaking Christian modesty laws means that you are breaking a law.My comments were directed at 'you never see other religions imposing such laws'. That simply isn't true. I attempted to illustrate how we live under such laws and perhaps are not even aware that we do.And just to clarify, I also don't agree with forcing anyone to do anything against their will. I would hate to see Shariah law adopted in Indonesia. My objection is around the ignorance of the quoted comment.
froggy
Ok I agree with you but, why do we wear anything at all? For me I find a half naked lady arousing and a distraction... if chicks ran around naked all day , I would get nothing done,, mabey thats why parts of africa are so "behind"...all they do is run around and hump like rabbits with no regard of the results "more children" that they cannot even feed!!! getting down to the primal ehh??,,, there should be some modesty, nothing worse than having to see the lacy panties under a mini-skirt on a young smoothed skin 17 year old while I'M SITTING IN CHURCH,, TALK ABOUT A DISTRACTION! You are not a guy and i dont think you can relate to the male hormon and the power it can have over us.... wars have been fought over women,,, lions kill each other and so do we....running around topless would not be very productive ,unless of course theres a brass pole and some loud music to shake your butt too!! you can be an athiest and be modest, I do see where your comming from, but we have to have some rules or laws, and most rules and laws are based upon religious backgrounds,, Ie.. the ten commandments,,, but then again if I was raised with nudity all around me, would it then arouse me? Hmm,, I'f It comes to a vote here I would be more than glad to support the bill for naked chicks running around!!
