How to Get Them Going?

Markit

Balifrog

Shadrach

Interesting (and old / recurrent) topic.Seen it happen in Thailand, here as well.Better to give them a "hind" on what to do.There is a fair chance you will lose a mate, but at least you will have done the right thing.Just my 5 cents.[/QUOTE]This is a well known fact, that if a person wants to live anywhere, they have to figure out a source of income, to cover expenses. It is difficult enough in our home countries, but to end up broke in a foreign country is for sure a disaster! I once saw a Japanese guy, looking pretty scruffy, starting to ask the locals for free housing, food, and basic support. That didn't last long, before they called the cops on him, to deport him back to Japan. I was sitting at a table in a tiny restaurant near Manali, India. He came in sat down, ask for a Chai, and proceeded to start smoking a Chillum! The owner told him to stop, but the Japanese guy ignored him. Soon the Cops showed up and sat down with the guy. They even lit matches for him to finish his smoke! Then they escorted him into their car, and off to immigration detention, then deportation! So, we all know, Bali is not a cheap place to stay anymore. A few thousand Rupiah, is a drop in the bucket. Sorry, like Balifrog said, it's time to hit the road Jack!

Chris A

Old and JadedOk bit of a touchy subject.Have 2 old friends (in both senses of the world - 1 is 74 other is 63) have started touching me and my wife up for money.Not much money in any way, just between 200k and 400k. I won't go into many details about my friends because they are known.It's not the money but at what point should I/you tell them "friend it's time to book that flight home" because when they are down to borrowing that little money they are in serious difficulties and just one step away from disaster. God only knows how they can afford ongoing visa costs!One of them sank all his savings and his ongoing pension in his choice to live here but it aint going well and the other has been here for 40 years and lives basically hand to mouth.Interested if anyone has a good idea cause I'm fresh out. It aint the money.[/QUOTE]If the bucks are not too much of an issue, offer to help put together an orderly and coordinated plan to get them back to the home country with some dignity. Maybe a couple or three months for the end date? Try to remove some of the potential shame element and celebrate the time they were here and the time they have left before launching back to the home country.

harryopal1

Markit

If home is the US and they are pensioners unless they own a house back in the states they will fall into a pit of bottomless pit of misery and poverty. In so many "developed" countries now the cost for rent eats up most of the pension. Tough times and a difficult issue with which to deal.[/QUOTE]The older guy is, unfortunately, American and has prospects exactly as you've described. He's managed to back himself into a fairly hopeless situation. Largely self inflicted by believing the sob stories from countless Javanese "girls" from local dating sits ( who shall remain nameless) begging him for money for their hopeless situations. Their greed is only trumped by their endlessly imaginative stories of woe and poverty.

Shadrach

The older guy is, unfortunately, American and has prospects exactly as you've described.He's managed to back himself into a fairly hopeless situation. Largely self inflicted by believing the sob stories from countless Javanese "girls" from local dating sits ( who shall remain nameless) begging him for money for their hopeless situations.Their greed is only trumped by their endlessly imaginative stories of woe and poverty.[/QUOTE]This story is sadly so true! I met a British bloke, that just couldn't quit falling for the young girls! I think some were from Bali also. They had stories how their mother was sick in the hospital and needed money, he offered to go there and pay their bills, but the girls just would tolerate that, because they really weren't in the hospital at all! I tried to warn him, but he just couldn't stop! The hotel where he stayed, had tons of sad stories, how the kids needed free motorbikes, food, etc. when it came time for them to help him, when he slipped down some stairs, and cracked his head open, they were so bankrupt, they just said how sad! I also fell into the sad bankrupt stories, and gave many millions, to my so called Bali friends, but when I had a heart attack, and needed a ride to the hospital, they completely forgot the money, I had given them! And hit me up for taxi fare!I don't regret helping them fix up their warung, I freely gave them that money! But when I was seriously sick, I was still in their eyes, just a walking ATM! At least I didn't fall for the sad girls stories, because I wasn't interested!So the moral to the story, is don't give with expectations of it being appreciated and they return the kindness!

AuroraB

They had stories how their mother was sick in the hospital and needed money, he offered to go there and pay their bills, but the girls just would tolerate that, because they really weren't in the hospital at all![/QUOTE]True that. My driver in Jakarta had a "grandma" that "passed away" every now and then -- so as to avoid my request for weekend work.

Markit

True that. My driver in Jakarta had a "grandma" that "passed away" every now and then -- so as to avoid my request for weekend work.[/QUOTE]This subject warrants an entire thread for itself: I personally know of a Javanese woman whose son got circumcised on a 6 monthly basis - so she could go visit. Another one was visiting her fam in Java (not the same one) and sent pictures to her guy asking for donations for a cousin to be re-attached to his asshole. Supposedly a birth defect. Landed in the middle of our weekly pool/booze afternoon. Needless to say caused much merriment and demands for pictures. Achieving no money donations.

Shadrach

YThis subject warrants an entire thread for itself: I personally know of a Javanese woman whose son got circumcised on a 6 monthly basis - so she could go visit. Another one was visiting her fam in Java (not the same one) and sent pictures to her guy asking for donations for a cousin to be re-attached to his asshole. Supposedly a birth defect. Landed in the middle of our weekly pool/booze afternoon. Needless to say caused much merriment and demands for pictures. Achieving no money donations.[/QUOTE]Yea, I heard that one about Grandma, dying several times also! I would also like to see that re-attachment photo! If it was not attached, did it have to be carried in a sling? Wow, That's a miracle that someone's foreskin grew back every six months! Indonesia is truly a magical place! If only the Gods, would tell the local people to stop filling up every creek or river, or canal, with plastic, I guess they better have another day off from work, to have a ceremony to Eat, Pray, and pollute!

Markit

AuroraB

I hear you about the trash and I have really tried over the years to have some positive affect, without success, I'm afraid.There are some very small, incremental successes, for instance, there is now a local guy that I meet most mornings around 6am, when I'm walking the dogs, that is going up and down the beach collecting the washed up trash.Nothing will make a real difference until the government gets involved in a big way with punishing fly tippers, stopping the production of everything in plastic, down to the smallest possible portion (poverty causes), better collection and recycling. Hell I'd even go for burning that shite to produce power - I prefer that to burying it in a random hole somewhere.[/QUOTE]About waste to energy: Singapore. The he [I]incinerator[/I] is operated at temperatures of between 850 and 1,000 [I]degrees Celsius:[/I][URL]https://recyclopedia.sg/resources/wte[/URL]In Denpasar on the other hand they opened a new "waste treatment" plant that is a total disaster with people living kilometers away complaining about the terrible odour.[I]"Waste materials delivered to TPST-Kertanlangguare are not incinerated but are processed into fuel following Refuse Derived Fuel (RDF) technology. RDF technology requires refuse to be dried, which creates odorous emissions now being released via a chimney."[/I][URL]https://www.balidiscovery.com/tpst-kertalanggu-bali-the-odor-lingers-on/[/URL]It is clear that Bali gov. has not implemented the RDF (Refuse Derived Fuel) plant as intended to ensure that a) negative pressure inside processing area to prevent odour to escape and to filter all chimney smoke to remove odour. They just dont care. Call it a fancy word and let their residents suffer.

harryopal1

Shadrach

The giant petroleum companies making huge profits from producing plastics have such clout that governments are not prepared to take them on to pay for cleaning up their mess. Instead it is all put upon consumers who mostly pay taxes and it is all our fault. Gradually the message about tossing garbage hither and thither is starting to take hold but until the petroleum companies are put upon to pay for plastic waste it will just get worse.[ATTACH type="full" alt="1719537590842.png"]4120[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]This is so True! If the Governments had a spine, and actually did something good for the Planet and All, instead of lining their pockets with pay off money, then they would make the petrochemical companies develop a safer biodegradable plastic, that would compost and not leave pollution! Yes for the time being the government, should make them develop recycling plants. World wide and provide bins, transportation, payed workers to do all the processing! Until then, the people will continue to throw their rubbish away, like Banana Leaves.

Chris A

This is so True! If the Governments had a spine, and actually did something good for the Planet and All, instead of lining their pockets with pay off money, then they would make the petrochemical companies develop a safer biodegradable plastic, that would compost and not leave pollution! Yes for the time being the government, should make them develop recycling plants. World wide and provide bins, transportation, payed workers to do all the processing! Until then, the people will continue to throw their rubbish away, like Banana Leaves.[/QUOTE]Using your and Harryopal's line of reasoning or logic, where do you draw the line making corporations responsible for and fixing all that ails the world? Where do you draw the line for governments making / forcing / dictating to the corporations to do these things you are advocating? Do you support the growth of governments to administer the ever increasing regulations that would be required to provide the oversight to make these things happen? Do you support capping how much profit a corporation can make? Would you support the increase in taxes to support the growth of government to oversee what would likely be boundless regulations to control anything and everything that ails the world? Do you believe in a free market economy or do you believe in a regulated economy where the government or governments take on more and more and control of what are now more or less private enterprises to achieve fixing all that ails the world? Do you think along the way in the quest to fix all that ails the world that you might lose some of your personal freedom? Just curious.

harryopal1

Using your and Harryopal's line of reasoning or logic, where do you draw the line making corporations responsible for and fixing all that ails the world? Where do you draw the line for governments making / forcing / dictating to the corporations to do these things you are advocating?Do you support the growth of governments to administer the ever increasing regulations that would be required to provide the oversight to make these things happen? Do you support capping how much profit a corporation can make? Would you support the increase in taxes to support the growth of government to oversee what would likely be boundless regulations to control anything and everything that ails the world?Do you believe in a free market economy or do you believe in a regulated economy where the government or governments take on more and more and control of what are now more or less private enterprises to achieve fixing all that ails the world?Do you think along the way in the quest to fix all that ails the world that you might lose some of your personal freedom? Just curious.[/QUOTE]I can't speak for Shadrach but my own view is that Multi nationals and all businesses have a social responsibility beyond just making maximum profits for shareholders. A lack of rigorous government concern in Australia has long seen foreign companies using national resources and disguising profit by using a method whereby the parent company charges the Australian branch all kinds of administrative fees that effectively enables the branch to show no profit and thereby avoid paying taxes to the Australian government. We have, for example, also squandered a huge LPG resource that has allowed multi nationals to transfer enormous quantities of gas for export and again with minimal taxes at odds with what is being earned by other world LPG rich countries. A resource that might have been used to provide Australian manufacturers with a major export advantage with access to lower cost energy supplies. It has been shown that it is cheaper for some Australian companies to buy Australian produced LPG from a US supplier than for them to buy in Australia.The fault of course lies with our own governments which has allowed this state of affairs to become customary when foreign companies use Australian resources. Another recent example has been with CocaCola drawing huge amounts of water from an underground basin without charge while the region is now experiencing a water shortage. Invariably lobbyists have been able to cosy up to political parties with donations let alone corrupt acceptance of bribes or employment within the foreign company.My proposition is that Australian governments have a responsibility to seek maximum advantage for the country when allowing development of resources. Increasingly environmental issues have become an element in relations with all industries, Australian owned or otherwise. Returning to my broader reference to the petroleum industry and plastic production I think it just that the costs of the negative impact of plastic waste is a matter that should also be shouldered by the producers and not just the consumers.

Chris A

I can't speak for Shadrach but my own view is that Multi nationals and all businesses have a social responsibility beyond just making maximum profits for shareholders. A lack of rigorous government concern in Australia has long seen foreign companies using national resources and disguising profit by using a method whereby the parent company charges the Australian branch all kinds of administrative fees that effectively enables the branch to show no profit and thereby avoid paying taxes to the Australian government. We have, for example, also squandered a huge LPG resource that has allowed multi nationals to transfer enormous quantities of gas for export and again with minimal taxes at odds with what is being earned by other world LPG rich countries. A resource that might have been used to provide Australian manufacturers with a major export advantage with access to lower cost energy supplies. It has been shown that it is cheaper for some Australian companies to buy Australian produced LPG from a US supplier than for them to buy in Australia.The fault of course lies with our own governments which has allowed this state of affaird to become customary when foreign companies use Australian resources. Another recent example has been with CocaCola drawing huge amounts of water from an underground basin without charge while the region is now experiencing a water shortage. Invariably lobbyists have been able to cosy up to political parties with donations let alone corrupt acceptance of bribes or employment within the foreign company.My proposition is that Australian governments have a responsibility to seek maximum advantage for the country when allowing development of resources. Increasingly environmental issues have become an element in relations with all industries, Australian owned or otherwise. Returning to my broader reference to the petroleum industry and plastic production I think it just that the costs of the negative impact of plastic waste is a matter that should also be shouldered by the producers and not just the consumers.[/QUOTE]Regarding corporate social responsibility, although I did not dig too deep, it appears that plastic bags are manufactured here in Indonesia and not by multinationals. Also, it appears that there are biodegradable bags manufactured here as well. Perhaps the role of government should be to tax the problem plastic to fund clean up and provide incentives to use the biodegradable ones. Ultimately behavior changes is the only answer. Your reference to the LNG resource exploitation is interesting and somewhat telling. Here's a link to the outlook for Australian LNG [URL='https://ieefa.org/resources/future-australian-lng']Aus LNG[/URL]The major takeaway - Australia is non-completive on the world market. Although I don't have firsthand experience on the two big LNG projects Chevron participated in, I have second hand knowledge and had access to data to explain why there were huge cost overruns (especially on Gorgon) mainly due to an excessive regulatory environment most especially on the environmental side at Barrow Island. For Wheatstone, I believe Chevron got more calibrated on the cost estimate, but suffice it to say that a regulatory environment on steroids coupled with very high labor costs are major contributors to the non-competitiveness. On some level I admire your nationalistic stance, however to blame a multinational for what you appear to purport as an injustice rings hollow. Hopefully Australia has developed the skills and received the technology transfer necessary to home-grow projects of the magnitude in the future.

harryopal1

Thanks for the Aus link and yes, I am aware that LPG is now not such an important resource for Australia but we first began production in the early 1950s so I see that as a lamentable lack of management by Australian governments and sixty or more years of not getting adequate benefit from our LPG resources. I do not put down all the world's waste problems to multi nationals and had suggested "...Multi nationals and all businesses have a social responsibility beyond just making maximum profits for shareholders."You indicate that, "Ultimately behavior changes is the only answer." I would not argue with you on that but suggest that behaviour change is required not just by you and I but also by producers of products that finish up as waste.On your earlier query about personal freedoms, this is always an ongoing struggle between governments which often seek to develop further controls at the expense of democratic freedoms but so far, at least in Australia, we still have a reasonable balance. Not that we can afford to be complacent.

Balifrog

Ultimately behavior changes is the only answer."[/QUOTE]Yes, but who wants to go back like we lived 200 years ago ?

Shadrach

Very well said by all parties! As Harryopal said, it is a social responsibility greater than just profit for shareholders. I think it is the moral obligation for the corporations to provide biodegradable plastics for the sake of the Planet! And to provide more assistance in providing bins, pick up locations, trucks, workers, to deal with the waste, hopefully mostly to recycle, and clean ways of dealing with non recyclable plastics! I am not into the government making the consumers pay for more regulations. I say start slowly and develop regulations as needed. I believe this has long been overdue, as we see the ever-increasing pollution on our beaches, streams, rivers, oceans! I also saw a problem with Pepsi taking too much water, which affected the local people's water supply. They got shut down! I have long sought ways to reuse and recycle since plastics became so prevalent. This problem is so big, it is the responsibility of the Corporations, and the government regulators, to deal with this! And educate the people to reuse, and recycle as much as possible!