Shadrach
Bali will be very lucky is just half of the money collected from this levy will be used as intended e.g cultural and environmental preservation efforts, public services, and infrastructure. People who understand Indonesian Culture well, will understand that The money collected from the public will be treated as if their own money.This is just in Bali alone[URL]https://observerid.com/universitas-udayana-rector-accused-of-causing-rp443b-in-state-loss-through-university-admission-scheme/[/URL][URL]https://bnnbreaking.com/world/indonesia/balis-udayana-university-rector-detained-for-corruption-campus-erupts-in-protest/[/URL][/QUOTE]I agree that if half the money collected will be used for all the things you said, but I think that is very unlikely! And saying the money collected will be treated as their own is not where this money is coming from. It is coming from a tourist tax! Just look at the infrastructure and you can see there is very little work done towards improving the roads and traffic congestion. Why should it take NGO's to try to stop the pollution problem? Where is the Government doing their job at this? The people have to be educated and fined for polluting the streets, rivers, and ocean! Stop the ferries from throwing their trash into the ocean too! Keep Bali clean, ( Jaga Bali Bersih)
Markit
Bali will be very lucky is just half of the money collected from this levy will be used as intended e.g cultural and environmental preservation efforts, public services, and infrastructure. People who understand Indonesian Culture well, will understand that The money collected from the public will be treated as if their own money.This is just in Bali alone[URL]https://observerid.com/universitas-udayana-rector-accused-of-causing-rp443b-in-state-loss-through-university-admission-scheme/[/URL][URL]https://bnnbreaking.com/world/indonesia/balis-udayana-university-rector-detained-for-corruption-campus-erupts-in-protest/[/URL][/QUOTE]Having read the 2 articles it's interesting that neither one actually says what he did but restrict themselves to vague pronouncements of "fraud" and the like. Wonder why that is...?
Markit
I agree that if half the money collected will be used for all the things you said, but I think that is very unlikely! And saying the money collected will be treated as their own is not where this money is coming from. It is coming from a tourist tax! Just look at the infrastructure and you can see there is very little work done towards improving the roads and traffic congestion. [/QUOTE]When pronouncing on the present traffic situation in Bali it's good to remember that we've gone from empty roads to bursting at the sides traffic in 2 years and I challenge anyone to show me a community that can master that explosion. Infrastructure in Europe, America or England takes 10 years to discuss and get all the idiots that have something to say about it cleared away before brick one is laid.
AuroraB
This is contradictory with the official information from FAQ from Balinese Authority[I]"Who should pay the levy: [B]Every international tourist[/B] who travels to Bali and do tourist activitie[/I]s "Also from article 5, paragraph (1) of Bali provincial regulation:[I]"(1) The Provincial Government imposes a levy on Every time [B]foreign tourists[/B] enter Bali directly from abroad or indirectly through the region others in Indonesia.[/I]"By definition, individuals holding ITAS/ITAP are not international or foreign tourists, and thus are not the subject to paying this levy. Therefore, asking people to file up for exemption could be seen as a mockery for the Balinese government. To me it is similar to asking people who are holding MERP as part of their ITAS/ITAP to request exemption for single entry.Another issue here is that, how can the levy be enforced for foreign tourists entering Bali on domestic routes such as Jakarta to Bali or via land and sea? While it's feasible to implement the levy alongside immigration control for international flights, the process becomes more complex for domestic travel. Will Balinese authorities need to individually check every passenger entering Bali from other parts of Indonesia at the domestic airports, seaports, and other entry points? Consider the sheer volume of domestic flights, ferry crossings from Surabaya, and speedboat journeys from Lombok each day. Furthermore, domestic travellers via land and sea will inevitably include many local Indonesian people. How many of them travel to Bali daily?[/QUOTE]My post was edited some time back (at bottom post) to clarify that KITAS/KITAP holders do not need to apply for exemption from paying tourist tax.
AuroraB
Having read the 2 articles it's interesting that neither one actually says what he did but restrict themselves to vague pronouncements of "fraud" and the like. Wonder why that is...?[/QUOTE]He was convicted for basically shacking down new prospective students by imposing illegal levies.[URL]https://bali.antaranews.com/berita/333420/mantan-rektor-unud-bantah-ada-pungli-ke-401-mahasiswa[/URL]
britoo
When pronouncing on the present traffic situation in Bali it's good to remember that we've gone from empty roads to bursting at the sides traffic in 2 years and I challenge anyone to show me a community that can master that explosion. Infrastructure in Europe, America or England takes 10 years to discuss and get all the idiots that have something to say about it cleared away before brick one is laid.[/QUOTE]The broader point is right but I don't think that's strictly true . . . at least for the South up to and including Ubud.Pre covid, the traffic in South Bali was already a nightmare and it could easily take over an hour to crawl through Seminyak or to cover the last mile into Ubud for example. Jl Raya Sunset was always a bit of a mare.Covid really was a wasted opportunity but then again people had their hands busy just surviving.Things have probably gone beyond pre-covid levels now and the congested area has certainly spread but its not really anything new.
pantaiema
Have you heard about the behaviour of customs officials and policemen in Bali? To be honest, corruption eradication efforts are underway, but there is still a considerable number of them. These are just a few recent examples of people's personal experiences[MEDIA=reddit]bali/comments/11d9qc8[/MEDIA][MEDIA=reddit]bali/comments/uxgrwt[/MEDIA]
Markit
The broader point is right but I don't think that's strictly true . . . at least for the South up to and including Ubud.Pre covid, the traffic in South Bali was already a nightmare and it could easily take over an hour to crawl through Seminyak or to cover the last mile into Ubud for example. Jl Raya Sunset was always a bit of a mare.Covid really was a wasted opportunity but then again people had their hands busy just surviving.Things have probably gone beyond pre-covid levels now and the congested area has certainly spread but its not really anything new.[/QUOTE]Prior to covid there were complaints about traffic in the south and there were some things done (underpass and roundabout by the airport, for example) but these were largely only possible due to not having to destroy existing houses and business to complete them. Take for example the suggested "calming" of traffic through Candi dasa; it will never happen because they would have to just about destroy the city to save it (not from the Vietnam war) and the same holds true for the south. The only viable option is to convince people there is a whole island out there just waiting for them to come enjoy and to get the feck out of a 5km strip of south Bali and Ubud! I really don't get it, the rest of the island is sooooo much prettier, quieter, cleaner, more well behaved, Balinese (most of your staff down there are from Java), more traditional, I can go on and on. There don't need to be more or bigger roads down south (history is full of examples where roads have been enlarged or newly built to decrease congestion only to be full again the day after they opened) but the traffic from there needs to be spread over the rest of the island where the byroads are well paved, signposted and they fecking don't eat Christians any more (much). How do you motivate idiot bogans, digital gonads, trendy "influencers" and the rest of the worlds timid "adventurers" to go check out the rest of the island that might be 1.5 hours away from an airport they won't need to go to for the next 2 weeks?
britoo
How do you motivate idiot bogans, digital gonads, trendy "influencers" and the rest of the worlds timid "adventurers" to go check out the rest of the island that might be 1.5 hours away from an airport they won't need to go to for the next 2 weeks?[/QUOTE].... you don't ..... you leave them to play in the cesspit of their own making and enjoy the fresh air, peace and quiet (Cock-a-doodle-dooo + Woof Woof) out in the wilds, bintang besar in hand.Problem is the countdown is running and eventually the rot will reach your special bit of rainforest :)
YachtRock
Prior to covid there were complaints about traffic in the south and there were some things done (underpass and roundabout by the airport, for example) but these were largely only possible due to not having to destroy existing houses and business to complete them.Take for example the suggested "calming" of traffic through Candi dasa; it will never happen because they would have to just about destroy the city to save it (not from the Vietnam war) and the same holds true for the south.The only viable option is to convince people there is a whole island out there just waiting for them to come enjoy and to get the feck out of a 5km strip of south Bali and Ubud!I really don't get it, the rest of the island is sooooo much prettier, quieter, cleaner, more well behaved, Balinese (most of your staff down there are from Java), more traditional, I can go on and on.There don't need to be more or bigger roads down south (history is full of examples where roads have been enlarged or newly built to decrease congestion only to be full again the day after they opened) but the traffic from there needs to be spread over the rest of the island where the byroads are well paved, signposted and they fecking don't eat Christians any more (much).How do you motivate idiot bogans, digital gonads, trendy "influencers" and the rest of the worlds timid "adventurers" to go check out the rest of the island that might be 1.5 hours away from an airport they won't need to go to for the next 2 weeks?[/QUOTE]Yep. Good point. Look at LA for example. Don't they have like 6 lane highways there or something? Making wider roads and more roads isn't the answer. The answer is to less traffic and less pollution is less tourists. However, that also comes with less money and looking back in history, humans generally don't like having less money. So I don't see the traffic problem ever going away.
YachtRock
I agree that if half the money collected will be used for all the things you said, but I think that is very unlikely! And saying the money collected will be treated as their own is not where this money is coming from. It is coming from a tourist tax! Just look at the infrastructure and you can see there is very little work done towards improving the roads and traffic congestion. Why should it take NGO's to try to stop the pollution problem? Where is the Government doing their job at this? The people have to be educated and fined for polluting the streets, rivers, and ocean! Stop the ferries from throwing their trash into the ocean too! Keep Bali clean, ( Jaga Bali Bersih)[/QUOTE]I mean even in supposedly "1st world" western countries the governments don't use the tax money honestly. So how can we expect Indonesia to do it?
AuroraB
Have you heard about the behaviour of customs officials and policemen in Bali? To be honest, corruption eradication efforts are underway, but there is still a considerable number of them. These are just a few recent examples of people's personal experiences[MEDIA=reddit]bali/comments/11d9qc8[/MEDIA][MEDIA=reddit]bali/comments/uxgrwt[/MEDIA][/QUOTE]The examples you picked are similar to what I experienced more that 20 years ago. So when you refer to "[I]corruption eradication efforts are underway[/I]". What efforts specifically? Honest question.
pantaiema
I refer people from the former USSR as Russians because they look similar to me. Also, because many of those living in these countries are Russians. People who harbour hatred towards people from these countries, don't you like seeing someone like Estonian model Valeria Vasilieva wandering around Bali? In 2022, she paid the price, hunted by the Indonesian police for calling Balinese police corrupt and posted it in her social media profile, and was expelled from a global event in Bali[URL]https://thebalisun.com/estonian-model-apologises-for-accusing-bali-police-of-corruption/[/URL]Don't you like seeing things like this?[MEDIA=youtube]6GcL-6LsIos[/MEDIA]In the evening you could party with them like this guy Indonesia Bali - Russian and European Pretty Girls on the BEACH[MEDIA=youtube]OnJA2mcqDrM:1095[/MEDIA] THIS BALI NIGHTCLUB IS FULL OF RUSSIAN HOT MODELS! (Canggu, Denpasar)You don't need to go to FKK in Germany (extreme case), Copacabana Beach in Brazil or to fomer USSR countries to see these things; they're right at your doorstepIn Indonesia it is an offence to insult the government, state institutions, president or vice president.Article 241: Everyone who broadcasts, shows, or attaches writing or pictures so that they are seen by the public, plays recordings so that they are heard by the public, or disseminates by means of information technology containing humiliation to [B]the government or state institutions.[/B] Similarly Article 218 targets those who challenge the honour and dignity of the president or vice president, except if done in the public interest or self-defense.In my opinion, there's a distinction when you switch the terminology from "police" to "policemen." Using the latter, you cannot be prosecuted under Article 241, as you're specifically referring to the individuals rather than the institution itself.
pantaiema
The examples you picked are similar to what I experienced more that 20 years ago. So when you refer to "[I]corruption eradication efforts are underway[/I]". What efforts specifically? Honest question.[/QUOTE]Well, there has been notable progress. During the era of Suharto's rule, Indonesia ranked as one of the most corrupt countries globally, even securing the top spot (yes, it's not a typo, No.1 in the world) or was listed among the top ten most corrupt nations.Today, numerous high-profile cases of mega-corruption have been uncovered, high profile police generals have been prosecuted, leading to the imprisonment of some individuals involved. This progress can be attributed to greater press freedom and the influential role of social media. Consequently, Indonesia's Corruption Perception Index (CPI) has significantly improved compared to the period under Suharto's leadership.[URL]https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023[/URL][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index[/URL]In terms of the conduct of police officers, customs officials, and immigration authorities in Bali, I've observed that some individuals acknowledge an improvement. Additionally, there's a notable comparison could be drawn between the processes of obtaining a driving license, vehicle registration, customs, and immigration paperwork during Suharto's regime and the present. While it may not have reached the anticipated level of improvement for many, there's significant progress noted by people.
britoo
The examples you picked are similar to what I experienced more that 20 years ago. So when you refer to "[I]corruption eradication efforts are underway[/I]". What efforts specifically? Honest question.[/QUOTE]To be fair, there are areas where things have moved forward, normally by placing the transactions in the light.At immigration, they tore down the walls of the private rooms where you had your photo and were interviewed and they are now open but partitioned. They also moved to digital payment closing down the cash office.When we went to the land office, the folks were very open, telling us that they had been told to get out of their private offices and interact with "customers". They were so helpful we asked if we could offer some chocolate as a gift - and the lady responded in horror, for fear of losing her job.Likewise a SAMSAT (I think) chap who helped us do the 5-year which involved crawling under the engine practically ran off when I offered to thank him with a small tip - on reflection a bit naive and stupid on my part.Don't get me wrong there's in all probability stuff going on every day and in the world of big ticket items, as someone said, this happens in the West just the same.I think things did edge forwards.
Markit
To be fair, there are areas where things have moved forward, normally by placing the transactions in the light.At immigration, they tore down the walls of the private rooms where you had your photo and were interviewed and they are now open but partitioned. They also moved to digital payment closing down the cash office.When we went to the land office, the folks were very open, telling us that they had been told to get out of their private offices and interact with "customers". They were so helpful we asked if we could offer some chocolate as a gift - and the lady responded in horror, for fear of losing her job.Likewise a SAMSAT (I think) chap who helped us do the 5-year which involved crawling under the engine practically ran off when I offered to thank him with a small tip - on reflection a bit naive and stupid on my part.Don't get me wrong there's in all probability stuff going on every day and in the world of big ticket items, as someone said, this happens in the West just the same.I think things did edge forwards.[/QUOTE]15 years ago the immi in Kuta was a trip: 10 or 15 immi officials standing around outside in the shade each with a fist full of passports in their hands all openly doing business with tourists and expats for their visas - no sense of shame or worry about getting caught. So, yeah, times have changed.
pantaiema
If you enter Bali from another international airports such as Jakarta, Surabaya, Makassar for example, despite still being obligated to pay the levy, it's relatively easy to avoid detection. Once within Indonesian territory, verifying payment becomes more challenging. Authorities cannot thoroughly check every individual, including locals travelling to Bali via buses or domestic flights. There are so many local people in and out Bali. While I don't encourage this conduct, even if you don't pay the levy, the maximum legally enforceable amount they can demand from you is the original IDR150k levy; there's no fine for non-payment.[I]"Article 6 Bali_GR_N0_6_2023 paragraph (1).(1) In the event that foreign tourists have not been able to provide proof of payment as intended in Article 5, paragraph (6), Foreign Tourists are required to do so payment of levies as referred to in Article 5 paragraph (3).Article 5 paragraph (3).(3) The levies as intended in paragraph (1) are mandatory paid via electronic payment (e-Payment) amounting to IDR 150,000.00 (one hundred and fifty thousand rupiah)."[/I]
AuroraB
Looks like tourists have the option to bypass prepayment and the lines at the airport -- and arrange for payment while in Bali. There is no information how they ensure all tourists actually pay their "mandatory" 150k before leaving.[ATTACH type="full"]4047[/ATTACH][URL]https://bali.antaranews.com/berita/338373/pemprov-bali-evaluasi-penempatan-alat-statis-pemindai-pungutan-wisman-di-bandara[/URL]
harryopal1
Looks like tourists have the option to bypass prepayment and the lines at the airport -- and arrange for payment while in Bali. There is no information how they ensure all tourists actually pay their "mandatory" 150k before leaving.[ATTACH=full]4047[/ATTACH][URL]https://bali.antaranews.com/berita/338373/pemprov-bali-evaluasi-penempatan-alat-statis-pemindai-pungutan-wisman-di-bandara[/URL][/QUOTE]So you arrive with a busload of people at GWK or drop into a tourist office in Kuta and you say you want to pay the tourist tax? And of course all the staff at these venues have been briefed and have special purpose dockets of which they can give you a copy to prove you have paid... if somewhere you are challenged?It reminds me that in Melbourne it was decided to introduce a smart card for travel on public transport. It was decided not to go with an existing format but create a new card. All kinds of problems when the cards did not always work and it cost millions of dollars before the system finally got fixed. So easy to get a bright idea but implementation is often the tricky bit.If you want a good laugh and to read what an absolute cock up this turned out to be then you can check this link:[URL]https://www.eurasiareview.com/05062023-ticketing-woes-the-patchy-record-of-myki-oped/[/URL][ATTACH type="full" alt="1708441826261.png"]4048[/ATTACH]
AuroraB
So you arrive with a busload of people at GWK and at the payment point you say you want to pay the tourist tax? And of course all the staff at these venues have been briefed and have special purpose dockets of which they can give you a copy to prove you have paid... if somewhere you are challenged?[/QUOTE]From reading the Antara article I linked to there is no clear plan for how to collect tourist tax for those allowed to "pay later". If you are allowed to leave the airport on arrival without paying the tourist tax then the "system" is clear as mud. I guess there will be some changes coming over the next few weeks as the current system with 5-6 persons carrying handheld scanners roaming around the area before customs will not be able to enforce this "mandatory" tax collection.
