Moving to Bali

Garner

Markit

So you're gonna rock up here and ask some sleeping bureaucrat about paying taxes? He'll suddenly realize that expats, foreigners living here and just people in generally haven't been paying the whole time and then there will be hell to pay!No fecker in the country pays any taxes - why do you think everything is in the in the state it's in? I actually prefer poor people not paying taxes as opposed to billionaires, that is. If you were looking for a sensible answer this is as good as it may get...

gtrken

Depends if you are going to try and rent the Villa while you aren't here. Personal tax is best left alone and deal with it for your own country. You wont be working in Indonesia so should be no tax to pay. If you want to rent the villa then you have to apply for licenses and pay tax on any income. The Indonesian Govt usually charges 10% and there is no such thing as negative gearing, tax refunds or any other thing so forget about ever seeing the money again.Don't mind Markit , he is the resident grump/comedian/hassler ( or is that hustler ? ) but has been here a long time and has a lot of knowledge.He responds very well to quality cheese...CheersKen

britoo

Welcome to the forum,rainy season is live and well and its absolutely pouring down in Ubud at this time.I am afraid I don't have a recommendation but I thought it worth sharing the following - which you are free to ignore if it falls under the "D'oh obvious" category.1. I found my local consulate (not US or Canadian) to be super helpful in recommending professional services, in my case a notary, when I needed to get some formal documents notarised. Your milage may vary but they may be best place to point you in the right direction to get goiod quality advice - a real challenge here.2. Cekindo, Emerhub and Okusi show up on these forums multiple times. They appear to be the bigger regional names but I have no experience of them3. In case you havent seen already all the big 4 no its 3 now firms prepare pocket tax guides which provide a great starting point and are worth a skim read;+ [URL]https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/id/Documents/tax/id-tax-indonesian-tax-guide-2019-2020-en.pdf[/URL]+ [URL]https://www.pwc.com/id/en/pocket-tax-book/english/pocket-tax-book-2021.pdf[/URL]+ [URL]https://assets.ey.com/content/dam/ey-sites/ey-com/en_gl/topics/tax/tax-guides/2021/ey-worldwide-personal-tax-and-immigration-guide-4-february-2021.pdf#page=691?download[/URL][COLOR=rgb(0, 168, 133)][U]"Individuals are considered resident for tax purposes if they are present in Indonesia for more than 183 days within a 12-month period or if, within the calendar tax year, they reside in Indonesia with the intent to stay."[/U][/COLOR]You may be in luck (or not depending on your intention) in as much as it seems, if you keep your stay to under 6 months (183 dys) as you suggest you intend and most importantly you remain resident (according to whatever test your current country of residence applies) then you would appear to be non resident for tax purposes in Indonesia.Note however I am not a professional in this area so you'll still need to get proper advice.Cheers

Garner

Thanks very much for all the responses- very helpful- even yours Markit! Cheers to you all as well!

Ultrafart The Brave

Huronyx

britoo

Hello All,Nice to be part of the forum. My wife (American) and I (Canadian) have visited Bali many times and love it. We are now planning on buying or leasing a villa in the Ubud area, applying for a Kitas retirement visas, and spending 4-6 months of the year there. Wondering if anyone can recommend a good local accountant who is conversant with current Indonesian/Expat personal tax issues who speaks English. Thanks![/QUOTE]Welcome to the forum guys. Good luck with your big move.I am afraid I don't have a recommendation for you but as Markit says 'caveat emptor'.The following might help though:[URL]https://www.pwc.com/id/en/pocket-tax-book/english/pocket-tax-book-2023.pdf[/URL] (see page 21)[URL]https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/id/Documents/tax/id-tax-guide-2023-2024.pdf[/URL] (see page 49)It suggests that if you keep it under the 6 months and you still have your own home back 'home' you will most likely be just fine. Afraid this doesn't constitute advice so it's still on you to work it out according to your risk tolerance.Sorry, if all I have done is teach you how to suck eggs.Bestoh just realised this is an old thread and i gave pretty much an identical answer earlier. Ho Hum

pantaiema

My wife and I also fell in love with Bali during our visits. When we were navigating the complexities of relocating, we found a fantastic local accountant who made everything a breeze. She was fluent in English and had a deep understanding of both Indonesian and expat tax laws. Btw, I came across a great relocation service, specifically for Maryland [URL]https://threemovers.com/maryland/[/URL], that might be helpful for your move.[/QUOTE]Big International Accountancy firms, Business Consultant have branch office in Jakarta. They definitely understand well both Indonesian and International taxation, accountancy, Business and Employment law, and Auditing.A few to name Price Water house Coopers (PwC), Ernst & Young, McKinsey & Company, Boston Consulting Group (BCG), KPMG Consulting, McKinsey & Company Grant Thornton. For other firms, you name it, it is highly likely they have a branch office in Jakarta.

Markit

My wife and I also fell in love with Bali during our visits. When we were navigating the complexities of relocating, we found a fantastic local accountant who made everything a breeze. She was fluent in English and had a deep understanding of both Indonesian and expat tax laws. Btw, I came across a great relocation service, specifically for Maryland [URL]https://threemovers.com/maryland/[/URL], that might be helpful for your move.[/QUOTE]Friend the absolute last thing you want to do is ship any of your stuff from the US to Bali - the tax will kill you and once they've got you they don't let go. It is far better to store or sell all your "valuables" there and buy everything (much cheaper and less toxic than shipping) you will need here. For personal stuff you just can't store then take them as extra luggage on the flight - to be realistic you'll prob get 30kg each anyway and that is really enough for most clutter. Honestly most people I know live with 2 or 3 pairs of shorts, the same in sarongs and tshirts - everyone goes "commando" as it's cooler and a couple of pairs of sandals/flipflops.

Shadrach

If a person cannot work in the country then why would they be taxed? Even if they stay more than 183 days? What if that person doesn't work any more or is disabled? To the best of my knowledge most of the people here only pay land tax, motor vehicle registration tax, tobacco, alcohol, and things they are forced to pay! Correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't that why there is no phone numbers for shops, stores, factories, and thus no phone directory book, which makes it very to find out if a store has a product you need without having to go there directly. It's a very inefficient way to do business! Wouldn't it be nice if you could just call a store to see if they have the product you need? That's much too practical! Sorry that's a western way of thinking!

YachtRock

Friend the absolute last thing you want to do is ship any of your stuff from the US to Bali - the tax will kill you and once they've got you they don't let go. It is far better to store or sell all your "valuables" there and buy everything (much cheaper and less toxic than shipping) you will need here.For personal stuff you just can't store then take them as extra luggage on the flight - to be realistic you'll prob get 30kg each anyway and that is really enough for most clutter. Honestly most people I know live with 2 or 3 pairs of shorts, the same in sarongs and tshirts - everyone goes "commando" as it's cooler and a couple of pairs of sandals/flipflops.[/QUOTE]Depends what you are shipping but last I heard, the import tax is 17.5% . I know plenty of people that have imported things from US and Europe to Bali. It's not a big deal. You simply submit all the required documents, pay the tax and you're good to go.

pantaiema

If a person [B]cannot work in the country then why would they be taxed[/B]? Even if they stay more than 183 days? What if that person doesn't work any more or is disabled? To the best of my knowledge most of the people here only pay land tax, motor vehicle registration tax, tobacco, alcohol, and things they are forced to pay! Correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't that why there is no phone numbers for shops, stores, factories, and thus no phone directory book, which makes it very to find out if a store has a product you need without having to go there directly. It's a very inefficient way to do business! Wouldn't it be nice if you could just call a store to see if they have the product you need? That's much too practical! Sorry that's a western way of thinking![/QUOTE]Because work and income are two different things. You might not be working but you might still have income. Incomes including passive incomes, such as dividends from share investments, capital gains, rental income, interest, and royalties, income from pension, among others, is subject to taxation in Indonesia. Indonesia adopts a worldwide taxation system, meaning that even income from renting out your home in your home country, pension if it has not been taxed at source is taxable in Indonesia if you are an Indonesian residence holding ITAS/ITAP visas. However, Indonesia has signed tax treaties with various countries to prevent double taxation, ensuring that you will not be taxed twice.Nomads in Bali are also subject to taxation, regardless of where the income is earned in Indonesia, let alone if their income comes from activities within Indonesia such as making video clips, travel blogs, consultancy services, etc. This is one of the reason frequently quoted the disadvantage of making Indonesian as the second home, for those who do not have any tie to Indonesia.

Shadrach

That soBecause work and income are two different things. You might not be working but you might still have income. Incomes including passive incomes, such as dividends from share investments, capital gains, rental income, interest, and royalties, income from pension, among others, is subject to taxation in Indonesia. Indonesia adopts a worldwide taxation system, meaning that even income from renting out your home in your home country, pension if it has not been taxed at source is taxable in Indonesia if you are an Indonesian residence holding ITAS/ITAP visas. However, Indonesia has signed tax treaties with various countries to prevent double taxation, ensuring that you will not be taxed twice.Nomads in Bali are also subject to taxation, regardless of where the income is earned in Indonesia, let alone if their income comes from activities within Indonesia such as making video clips, travel blogs, consultancy services, etc. This is one of the reason frequently quoted the disadvantage of making Indonesian as the second home, for those who do not have any tie to Indonesia. [/QUOTE]

Shadrach

ThThat sounds good on paper. I don't think the Bali people got that message! [/QUOTE]

Mark

Because work and income are two different things. You might not be working but you might still have income. Incomes including passive incomes, such as dividends from share investments, capital gains, rental income, interest, and royalties, income from pension, among others, is subject to taxation in Indonesia. Indonesia adopts a worldwide taxation system, meaning that even income from renting out your home in your home country, pension if it has not been taxed at source is taxable in Indonesia if you are an Indonesian residence holding ITAS/ITAP visas. However, Indonesia has signed tax treaties with various countries to prevent double taxation, ensuring that you will not be taxed twice.Nomads in Bali are also subject to taxation, regardless of where the income is earned in Indonesia, let alone if their income comes from activities within Indonesia such as making video clips, travel blogs, consultancy services, etc. This is one of the reason frequently quoted the disadvantage of making Indonesian as the second home, for those who do not have any tie to Indonesia.[/QUOTE]This information is legally correct. However, the Indonesian Ministry of Finance (through the local Kantor Pajak Pratama) will not issue an NPWP (tax identification number) to any foreigner staying in Indonesia unless they have legal residency under a Kitas or Kitap. Therefore, the Indonesian government has made a conscious decision that it will not pursue tax declarations or payment from digital nomads or any other individual staying in Indonesia under, for example, a social visa, irrespective of their length of stay or imputed tax residency status. It's a tremendous advantage for those who want to live in Indonesia on an endless series of social or business visit passes, which the government will also kindly issue. I sort of wish I had followed this path myself...

mugwump

This information is legally correct. However, the Indonesian Ministry of Finance (through the local Kantor Pajak Pratama) will not issue an NPWP (tax identification number) to any foreigner staying in Indonesia unless they have legal residency under a Kitas or Kitap. Therefore, the Indonesian government has made a conscious decision that it will not pursue tax declarations or payment from digital nomads or any other individual staying in Indonesia under, for example, a social visa, irrespective of their length of stay or imputed tax residency status. It's a tremendous advantage for those who want to live in Indonesia on an endless series of social or business visit passes, which the government will also kindly issue. I sort of wish I had followed this path myself...[/QUOTE]

mugwump

Well written answer and valid.

pantaiema

This information is legally correct. However, the Indonesian Ministry of Finance (through the local [B]Kantor Pajak Pratama[/B]) will not issue an NPWP (tax identification number) to any foreigner staying in Indonesia [B]unless they have legal residency under a Kitas or Kitap[/B]. Therefore, the Indonesian government has made a conscious decision that it will not pursue tax declarations or payment from digital nomads or any other individual staying in Indonesia under, for example,[B] a SOCIAL VISA[/B], irrespective of their length of stay or imputed tax residency status. It's a tremendous advantage for those who want to live in Indonesia on an endless series of social or business visit passes, which the government will also kindly issue. I sort of wish I had followed this path myself...[/QUOTE]I am not a tax expert. So would also like to learn more about this. But based on the information above, it could be explained like this:A Social visa is B211/B211A, I understand in the past some NOMADS get entrance using these B211/B211A VISA, not with newly launched [B]official NOMAD[/B] VISA (E33G). With B211/B211A [B]it is impossible to stay for longer than 183+ days[/B] where people might be started to be considered as a tax residence in Indonesia. Also using B211/B211A, the NOMAD could do a visa run before 183 day elapse, to reset the clock to avoid becoming a subject to residential income tax. This is my standpoint represents my personal interpretation and is open to further debate.[URL]https://visaguide.world/digital-nomad-visa/indonesia/[/URL][ATTACH type="full" width="410px" alt="Capture.JPG"]4052[/ATTACH]The newly introduced E33G Visa is the official NOMAD VISA. It permits individuals to remain in Indonesia [B]for up to one ye[/B]ar (e.g longer than 183 days) without the necessity of conducting a visa run. I would welcome a link to a definitive statement from Indonesian governmental entities, excepts from the regulations, or laws that could serve as a defence, explicitly stating that [B]E33G holders[/B] (not B211/B211A) are exempt from tax obligations.

Mark

I am not a tax expert. So would also like to learn more about this. But IMO the opinion above could be explained like this:B211/B221A is Social visa is, I understand in the past some NOMADS get entrance using B211/B211A VISA, not with newly launched [B]official NOMAD[/B] VISA (E33G). With B211/B221A [B]it is impossible to stay for longer than 183+ days[/B] where people might be start to considered as a tax residence. Also using B211/B221A, it is possible for NOMAD to do a visa run before 183 day elapse, to reset the clock to avoid becoming a subject to residential income tax. This is my standpoint represents my personal interpretation and is open to further debate.[URL]https://visaguide.world/digital-nomad-visa/indonesia/[/URL][ATTACH type="full" width="410px" alt="Capture.JPG"]4052[/ATTACH]The newly introduced official NOMAD VISA (E33G) permits individuals to remain in Indonesia for up to one year without the necessity of conducting a visa run. I would appreciate a link to a definitive statement from Indonesian governmental entities, regulations, or laws that could serve as a defence, explicitly stating that E33G holders are exempt from tax obligations.[/QUOTE]Regarding the B211, it is indeed maxed out at six months. However, one can apply for a new one and seamlessly get another six months. This can be done ad infinitum, and often it is. My understanding though, is that this is a single entry visa, so travel outside during the period is problematic. For those who need to travel in and out of Indonesia, a multiple-entry business visa seems to fit the bill. Both can easily be done by agents.As to clarifications, there will most likely never be a definitive public statement from the Indonesian government regarding an interpretation of any law. Having lived here for years and dealt with various aspects of the bureaucracy, it's become clear that there is often a fair amount of 'gray area' in the laws and regulations, and the government seems just fine with that. They enforce as and when it suits them, and don't when it doesn't. That's just the reality of life here, which is not ideal, but it is what it is.