spicyayam
I saw this posted in the [URL='https://www.facebook.com/groups/UbudCommunity/']Ubud Community[/URL] group on FB:IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN: FYI guys, I understand immigration is hitting villa airbnb rentals in the Penastanan, Kutuh and Jungjungan area hard. My friend just got a visit so I know of one for sure. And a villa manager told me a lot of people are getting busted. I'm not saying what's right or wrong, just want you to have the info and know what is at stake. An immigration official will visit the villa, ask staff and perhaps guests who is the boss and whatever other information they can get. At this stage they may not identify themselves as a government agent (I don't know). They will combine this with whatever they get from combing facebook posts and airbnb listings and use it as evidence.When they find the villa boss/manager, they will ask to see your visa. I think this is a way to get possession of the passport. Then they will tell you they have evidence of you marketing a villa business and that you have to appear the next morning in Denpasar. (my friend hasn't made it as far as the interview yet). At that interview they will show their evidence.My research with lawyers and people who have been through this says the next step is to keep you in a room for hours, trying to get a bribe, to avoid the official process. I don't know how high this amount can go, i've heard of $10,000 - maybe others know of more? My friend's lawyer offered to arrange the "clean up".If you don't pay the bribe, I believe the next step is detention (i.e. jail) until a court appearance, then possible fines and penalties, and then deportation with possibility to return after a time, or no possibility of return. So a warning, if you're not legal, you're risking the bribe process (and they have a LOT of leverage, especially if they have your passport, or I guess just you in custody), or the official process - both don't seem like good options. Of course if you're largely innocent, it might make sense to hold out as long as you can and insist on the legal process, which won't make them money.[/QUOTE]
tel522
Ah no pondok wisata licence I can imagine , naughty ! I forecast sales of champagne and caviar will reduce on the island .
davita
I've been warning potential/current foreign villa purchasers/owners who believe renting their vacant villas, without proper Pondok Wisata/NPWP/Banjar acceptance is dangerous, if advertising on the internet..AirBnB, and other internet sites are easy for Indonesian Authority to search and verify if legal or not. This gives another opportunity for them to bring legal action...which is what the Association of Hoteliers are pressing for.
Mark
I suspect the real reason immigration are interested is the illegal working aspect of running a rental business without a work permit. There are no doubt loads of expats, even those with the villa license and tax matters in order who are operating such a rental business on a sosbud or even a retirement kitas... Not a good idea. Those on a spouse kitas or kitap can rest easy if the villa documentation is in order. Those who have no correct documentation at all should be prepared for a very unpleasant experience if they are nicked.
davita
According to published information it's the Hotelier Association that are pushing for those illegal villa rentals to be investigated. I'm not so sure it's about expat or, say, Jakarta owners renting ..it hurts the bottom line of hotels and legal rentals. This is particularly so when there is so much room vacancy in Bali and, as also published, the Governor may apply a rule to limit room prices to avoid a 'drive to the bottom' of the market for accommodation....and the consequence of that.As always ...it's probably easier to blame the foreigner and target that market first...that's why I suggest not becoming vulnerable by using AirBnB, or other internet advertising.I'd advise guests to just say they are friends of the owner holidaying in the property in the hosts absence.
Mark
I'm happy if the whole thing can be cleaned up by the authorities, however long it takes and with whatever disruption occurs. While the allegations of police 'solutions' are not encouraging, the reality is that there are many foreigners working illegally in Bali doing this and that, and not paying tax on the resulting income. This needs to be sorted out and the behavior strongly dis-incentivized. Bali does not need fly by night expats subverting the law and grifting off the local economy. 'Doing as the Romans do' is no justification.Also, I disagree with your advice davita for the guests of Airbnb rentals and the like to lie about their arrangements. This makes them complicit in the fraud (at no upside to themselves) and therefore liable to action by the authorities, which is not a great way to spend a holiday.
davita
Also, I disagree with your advice davita for the guests of Airbnb rentals and the like to lie about their arrangements. This makes them complicit in the fraud (at no upside to themselves) and therefore liable to action by the authorities, which is not a great way to spend a holiday.[/QUOTE]Maybe you're right Mark...I just didn't want some member of this forum posting expletives about my pedantic approach to law and order...but he seems to be 'missing from parade' these days....so maybe I should have been more relaxed and posted what I really think...which is similar to your attitude.Every expat caught doing illegal acts actually causes the rest of us more consternation.
Mark
Maybe you're right Mark...I just didn't want some member of this forum posting expletives about my pedantic approach to law and order...but he seems to be 'missing from parade' these days....so maybe I should have been more relaxed and posted what I really think...which is similar to your attitude.Every expat caught doing illegal acts actually causes the rest of us more consternation.[/QUOTE]Ah, the expat anarchists - of which there are quite a few in Bali - hate following 'inconvenient' rules and like to pretend they are in a lawless paradise where virtually anything goes as long as you don't hurt someone or get caught. It's pretty selfish behavior and doesn't help to improve society... While I believe in live and let live, as guests in the country we should make a good faith effort to comply with its laws - it's actually not that hard.
Melati
I'm happy if the whole thing can be cleaned up by the authorities, however long it takes and with whatever disruption occurs. While the allegations of police 'solutions' are not encouraging, the reality is that there are many foreigners working illegally in Bali doing this and that, and not paying tax on the resulting income. This needs to be sorted out and the behavior strongly dis-incentivized. Bali does not need fly by night expats subverting the law and grifting off the local economy. 'Doing as the Romans do' is no justification.Also, I disagree with your advice davita for the guests of Airbnb rentals and the like to lie about their arrangements. This makes them complicit in the fraud (at no upside to themselves) and therefore liable to action by the authorities, which is not a great way to spend a holiday.[/QUOTE]Well said, totally agree Mark
elsieprobert
I suspect the real reason immigration are interested is the illegal working aspect of running a rental business without a work permit. There are no doubt loads of expats, even those with the villa license and tax matters in order who are operating such a rental business on a sosbud or even a retirement kitas... Not a good idea. Those on a spouse kitas or kitap can rest easy if the villa documentation is in order. Those who have no correct documentation at all should be prepared for a very unpleasant experience if they are nicked.[/QUOTE]I agree completely that holding all the correct licenses, reporting, paying taxes and complying with Indonesian law is what any foreigner that is running a villa on a commercial basis should be doing. The dilemma I have is how to do this? I am unable to obtain a Wisata license in my own name which means I need to rely on my Indonesian nominee to hold the license. After many years of requests, my nominee has finally agreed to apply for the license which is a huge relief to me, but has now raised the concern of how to practically report and pay the 10% gov't tax which I will need to charge on food/drinks and accommodation (if my understanding of this is correct of course .. if anyone knows of a publication that clearly states the tax rules for a P.Wisata please let me know).If anyone with experience in reporting tax via a nominee license holder can comment and give advice I would be very grateful. My best guess is that I will need to calculate tax payable for the month, give my nominee this information, rely on him to include this in his own reporting (he has a number of Pondok Wisatas himself), hand over the cash to my nominee and he will pay it to the tax office in Amlapura using his own NPWP. If I am right, how will I know if my tax has really been paid, and if it has been paid ... has it been paid against my P.Wisata or just put into the general pool of my nominees tax affairs. If each separate P.Wisata he holds had a separate NPWP I would feel a little reassured but I do not know if this is the case.So, I wonder how many other foreigners are in a similar position to me, where there is a desire to comply with Indonesian tax law but are unable to see a realistic and practical way to actually do this.
davita
Hi elsieprobert and welcome to the forum...I see you did post earlier and had no response as I believe no-one knows a realtor they would recommend...at least that's what I assumed to the 'non-response post.'...:)Unfortunately you have hit the nail on the head with your above post concerning being legal. It is impossible from the get-go to comply with legally renting for profit if the nominee is the one who has to do all the administration.A nominee, as I'm sure you are now aware, is the owner by title of Hak Milik property and you have no recourse, other than what was contracted between you and your nominee, to do anything with the property.
spicyayam
Just get receipts from the tax office and keep copies from your nominee.
elsieprobert
Hi Davita,Appreciate your response and also that you saw my previous post. It is a frustrating and essentially dead end situation (unless there is a solution that I am unaware of); hence my decision to seek a realtor. I do not want to operate illegally but can't see any solutions .. therefore my decision to sell. With the large amount of foreign 'owned' villas in Indonesia and particularly Bali, I feel that it would be in the government's best interest to create a way that foreigner's can become compliant. Maybe something similar to the amnesty where we can put our hand up, back-pay what we owe but have had no way of paying and then get issued with some sort of tax ID whereby we can make future payments. There is a lot of tax dollars (particularly PHR) out there that should be going to the regencies.
elsieprobert
Just get receipts from the tax office and keep copies from your nominee.[/QUOTE]Thanks Spicy Ayam .. sometimes the simplest solutions are the best! Maybe I have been overthinking this.....
spicyayam
Well it is not a unique situation. We have a hotel and my wife helps out other people with hotels with their monthly reporting requirements. She also helped a few people out during the amnesty. She does online consulting if you are interested (contact@balilawyer.net)
elsieprobert
Well it is not a unique situation. We have a hotel and my wife helps out other people with hotels with their monthly reporting requirements. She also helped a few people out during the amnesty.She does online consulting if you are interested (contact@balilawyer.net)[/QUOTE]Many thanks .. great to get a recommendation.
