banjar 'building' fees

Markit

JDW100 wrote My experience is thta the Banjar is out to get you, if they can squeeze any money from you they will do so. Recent examples from last twelve months: - Friend has known banjar in area for years. Built a villa on the understanding that banjar would build better access to his plot and others to be constructed. Much shaking of hands. As soon as villa nearing construction he’s told he must pay $10k for a ‘road’ and access. What happened to the promises? ‘Oh ha ha ha ‘pak, sorry now you must pay, ha, ha ,ha’. - Sanur, I know someone that owns a cafe. Again, known banjar guys for years. He tried his best to support staff during covid. Didn’t take a salary out for three years and has just started making better money again . Had a visit in Jan from three reps from banjar - outcome they want 3jt a month. Okay. Oh but we want it backdated 2 years. Two of his staff are tight with Banjar and obviously had given them financial info. Was able to negotiate it down. Has literally had banjar in his cafe every month for a coffee for years and they never mentioned any payments required. - In my street; trying to rip off people for a 500k a month donation. My wife is Indonesian and said ‘this is our house not a business’ so they immediately backed down, we pay 100k as it is a family home. Others have been paying the 500k for a while until it came up in discussion, when challenged Banjar changed to 100k as these are homes, not businesses. Refund the money? ‘Oh ha ha ha sorry cannot ha ha ha’. - friend has just won in court (amazingly) for access to a villa complex she built. Banjar extortion after the villas were constructed. All good until near the opening date and suddenly needs to pay some crazy sum for 10 years access. They lost. She is now too scared to visit her own properties. - My business: friendly with local Head. Been for coffee with him. Checked numerous times ‘all okay with us, no problems?’ Always a positive answer back. Banjar summoned my Balinese manager to a meeting. Apparently ‘angry’ we have broken some rules by having events and not paying for pecalang security. We must now pay 3jt a month. What events? Can you define an event? Our ‘events’ are attended by same number of normal guests. We want to abide by all rules: so can we have in writing please? Two days later a police/customs raid. This banjar guy has had coffee with me, discussed family, yet doesn’t have the courage to tell me he is unhappy or most likely he just has seen an opportunity to make some cash. We can’t prove it but sure he is cahoots with staff: they probably split some of the ‘fines’ and ongoing regular payments. More fool them: they were on great contracts: service, BPJS, holiday pay…the works. Just have not extended the contracts and are replacing with staff from Java. I can think of more examples. Greedy, corrupt, cowardly, two faced: will rip you off and then smile at you next day.

Clearly people have different experiences with the local bureaucracy and they for sure aren't all happy but, out of curiosity, can you say where you are on the island? Apparently I live in a blissfully happy corner of Bali where I've never heard of anything like this happening in the last 15 years around me. Sadly some people cause this type of reaction with the way they confront their neighbors and treat the locals. I have seen that type of reaction often enough usually from old Colonial Dutchmen and egotistical, been here 30 times with my 'Balinese family' and they will always look after me, Ozzies. Not saying this is the present situation but have just seen similar things like this.

JDW100

Markit wrote Clearly people have different experiences with the local bureaucracy and they for sure aren't all happy but, out of curiosity, can you say where you are on the island? Apparently I live in a blissfully happy corner of Bali where I've never heard of anything like this happening in the last 15 years around me. Sadly some people cause this type of reaction with the way they confront their neighbors and treat the locals. I have seen that type of reaction often enough usually from old Colonial Dutchmen and egotistical, been here 30 times with my 'Balinese family' and they will always look after me, Ozzies. Not saying this is the present situation but have just seen similar things like this.

Some examples from South, one from Ubud. I have no issue in paying some money for Banjar. If it was transparent process. I actually really like the culture here and the idea of Banjar. I’m happy to help pay for ceremonies and we always use pecalang if we have a party (usually kid’s birthday) at home. Do cleaning with community in our gang…but they would still have taken us for extra money if they could get away with it. None of my examples has been bule being arrogant- all the above are banjar being greedy. Everybody above has done their best to do things in the right way. These are decent people. What winds me up the most is that these guys can extort money and then smile at you the next day. With our local banjar taking 500 instead of 100 - one of guys that comes to collect the monthly money sat in my house and complained about one of my neighbours being rude and not speaking to him. Getting maid to come out with the donation. It’s because you knowingly ripped him off then refused to give back the money! I can give you another example of an older lady we met. Had lived next to her Balinese ‘family’ for many years; birthdays, weddings always invited. Very close. Had a house built -owned by one of the ’family’ through the nominee system. That generation of family started dying off and son of one of her ‘family’ decided one day he would take her house. That was that.

Foamcrest

I don’t doubt what you are saying and I sympathise with the lady who lost her home through the nomine system. Im sure that is not an isolated instance . There are better and more secure ways of ‘owning‘ a home in Bali which others will be more familiar with. personally we simply leased our land for 25 years with a 10 year option. Paid the rent upfront, bui the house no problems. Our daughter will have to negotiate the terms of the option and at the expiration of that term the villa will be handed back to the Balinese landowners or their heirs. Finish, full stop. That was the deal we made. Australians particularly have a hard time understanding the fact we just give the house back as our culture is so driven by home ownership. I fear there are going to be many more incidents of sons or daughters claiming the houses after the initial nomine dies. They simply don’t understand that as much as you twist and turn only Balinese can own land in Bali.

Balifrog

Foamcrest wrote I don’t doubt what you are saying and I sympathise with the lady who lost her home through the nomine system. Im sure that is not an isolated instance . There are better and more secure ways of ‘owning‘ a home in Bali which others will be more familiar with. personally we simply leased our land for 25 years with a 10 year option. Paid the rent upfront, bui the house no problems. Our daughter will have to negotiate the terms of the option and at the expiration of that term the villa will be handed back to the Balinese landowners or their heirs. Finish, full stop. That was the deal we made. Australians particularly have a hard time understanding the fact we just give the house back as our culture is so driven by home ownership. I fear there are going to be many more incidents of sons or daughters claiming the houses after the initial nomine dies. They simply don’t understand that as much as you twist and turn only Balinese can own land in Bali.

It's simply another mode of renting....

Shadrach

Foamcrest wrote I don’t doubt what you are saying and I sympathise with the lady who lost her home through the nomine system. Im sure that is not an isolated instance . There are better and more secure ways of ‘owning‘ a home in Bali which others will be more familiar with. personally we simply leased our land for 25 years with a 10 year option. Paid the rent upfront, bui the house no problems. Our daughter will have to negotiate the terms of the option and at the expiration of that term the villa will be handed back to the Balinese landowners or their heirs. Finish, full stop. That was the deal we made. Australians particularly have a hard time understanding the fact we just give the house back as our culture is so driven by home ownership. I fear there are going to be many more incidents of sons or daughters claiming the houses after the initial nomine dies. They simply don’t understand that as much as you twist and turn only Balinese can own land in Bali.

Yes I was told the Balinese own the land, but you own the house and have the right to sell it or pass it on to relatives. It's up to you what option you take!

Shadrach

Markit wrote You need to up the meds friend.

I 've never heard of a council tax! And inheritance, sales, Vat, etc. those have nothing to do with having a home here except for sales tax if you sell the house. You don't own the land unless you have an Indonesian wife, then She owns the land! And as you say, if you build a home in the States, maybe you have your own well or spring so don't owe anyone more $ for water. As for the road, again, that depends on where you live. Maybe you own your own road. Taxes are understood for all, such as property tax, that goes to the local government. And income tax for the Feds. It all depends on how and where you live. Pereonally I don't know of any one sitting around singing Kumbaya and trading vegan recipes. Maybe the only people you sit around with sing drunken sailor songs, swilling cheap, crappy beer! That's up to each person. It's so nice to hear how much you love your local Banjar!

Shadrach

Balifrog wrote She takes part in PLENTY ceremonies, at home, at the pura, at brother 1, 2, 3 house etc.... One of her elder brothers being deeply involved in the local Pura, she doesn't have much choice.....

Sounds so boring! But if it rocks her boat, then go for it! I personally never understood why people do this. It was never pushed in my home. My parents told me just to be honest and kind to all! They didn't tell me to be afraid of a mythical God that lives in the clouds that you cannot see, hear, or touch, but is the big boss and will punish you if don't follow a set of rules written by Man! I find it interesting all these different religions have a God or Son's of God or many different Gods, that are all somewhere but you can't see them? It seems more practical to love Mother Earth! Here you can see and feel the Sun, Rain, Wind, clouds, sky, mountains, streams, rivers,,oceans, animals, people, fire, etc. but this is up to each person to believe on their own. It's a subject like politics, best to just keep it too yourself, because no one will ever agree, and discussing it only turns into an argument!

harryopal1

Questions about God can be very dangerous in many part of the world but it seems so many notions of God have God in some kind of human form which is absurd. If God has some kind of human form then what does God eat? Does God talk to him or herself? And we had better not get into what a human shaped God might do with his or her naughty bits. Perhaps earth is where God goes to urinate or defecate. And what happens in the universe if God farts? As for creation I am content to accept that it is an unfathomable mystery. The science regarding creation and the notion that it all began with the Big Bang leaves me with the question, what was there before the Big Bang? Of course theology can be discussed without a heated argument but unless you are sure of the disposition of the person with whom you are having the discussion the consequences might end up with the Big Bang. And probably the local Banjar is not the person to put some of these questions to while you are negotiating building fees.

Balifrog

Shadrach wrote Sounds so boring! But if it rocks her boat, then go for it! I personally never understood why people do this. It was never pushed in my home. My parents told me just to be honest and kind to all! They didn't tell me to be afraid of a mythical God that lives in the clouds that you cannot see, hear, or touch, but is the big boss and will punish you if don't follow a set of rules written by Man! I find it interesting all these different religions have a God or Son's of God or many different Gods, that are all somewhere but you can't see them? It seems more practical to love Mother Earth! Here you can see and feel the Sun, Rain, Wind, clouds, sky, mountains, streams, rivers,,oceans, animals, people, fire, etc. but this is up to each person to believe on their own. It's a subject like politics, best to just keep it too yourself, because no one will ever agree, and discussing it only turns into an argument!

Well, you could look at it from another perspective. They keep their tradition, believes, culture, family ties, community spirit. All things that we have lost in Europe. One thing I often hear in Europe is, muslims are taking over, soon there will be more mosques than churches, etc.... Well, why are the churches empty ? The muslims never stopped us from going to the church. It was us, in name of progress, laicity, modernisme who decided not to go anymore. And in the process we lost a lot of community spirit. Yes, there are plenty other raisons... But I will never critizise a population that keeps their tradition alive. I may not agree with the base of those traditions, but I will do all I can so that they can continue to live as they believe they should live. Same as I continue to live, wherever I am in the world, with my old French traditions. And with a bit of goodwill, different traditions can harmoniously live together.

Balifrog

Shadrach wrote Yes your right about people having the right to follow traditions if they choose too. Just because a tradition has been established doesn't mean it's good for all. Such as FSM, male circumcision, forced to believe in a religion, forced to give money, etc. to the church, mosque, temple, etc. pressured what to consume, all of these so called traditions take away basic human rights of freedom to choose!

Agreed, BUT the day they will have full democracy, human rights, freedom of movement, speech and choice, defense of LGBT rights, the next step will be politically correct, and ultimate step the woke culture. They will have "succeeded", they have become like the "civilized West" ! Not sure this is the right path when you see the state of our countries.... Anyway if those countries want to ch1nge their rules, it is up to them to stand up against the things you mentionned. It is sure not our role to "intervene". Their society will change, with time. I have seen it happening in Korea and Thailand. China is in full change as well.

Shadrach

Balifrog wrote Ag Agreed, BUT the day they will have full democracy, human rights, freedom of movement, speech and choice, defense of LGBT rights, the next step will be politically correct, and ultimate step the woke culture. They will have "succeeded", they have become like the "civilized West" ! Not sure this is the right path when you see the state of our countries.... Anyway if those countries want to ch1nge their rules, it is up to them to stand up against the things you mentionned. It is sure not our role to "intervene". Their society will change, with time. I have seen it happening in Korea and Thailand. China is in full change as well.

I'm glad you agree that people have the right to choose their own path! But the way you said it was confusing. You made it sound like freedom could be a bad thing! You are right about no one should intervene. People have to see how they are living in their own homes and ask themselves is this how I want to live? A long time ago smart people said that religion should not be a part of schools, and the government. I agree! It is an individuals choice about their religious beliefs, sexual preferences, the right to provide for their families, etc. no one should be forced to pay homage to their religious institutions if they don't have enough to provide a good life for their families. Whatever peoples choice is how they want to live is OK as long as it doesn't bring harm to the planet, and other people around them. All I am trying to express is everyone deserves basic human rights, of freedom, a home, clean water, air, food, and housing! If they want to join others in following a religion, then that is their right. I am afraid of the current political atmosphere in the world today! Too many tyrants and Dictators!

Balifrog

Shadrach wrote I'm glad you agree that people have the right to choose their own path! But the way you said it was confusing. You made it sound like freedom could be a bad thing! You are right about no one should intervene. People have to see how they are living in their own homes and ask themselves is this how I want to live? A long time ago smart people said that religion should not be a part of schools, and the government. I agree! It is an individuals choice about their religious beliefs, sexual preferences, the right to provide for their families, etc. no one should be forced to pay homage to their religious institutions if they don't have enough to provide a good life for their families. Whatever peoples choice is how they want to live is OK as long as it doesn't bring harm to the planet, and other people around them. All I am trying to express is everyone deserves basic human rights, of freedom, a home, clean water, air, food, and housing! If they want to join others in following a religion, then that is their right. I am afraid of the current political atmosphere in the world today! Too many tyrants and Dictators!

Well, I partially agree with you but not completely. Democracy for instance can't work in many countries. Take Africa for instance, France has been pushing hard for those countries to become democratic. But most of those countries have different ethinicities, tribes, religion. As Africans tend to vote for somebody of their tribe, ethnicity or religion, the largest ethnicity will always win, leaving the others abandoned and 2nd class citizens. The origin of this is simply that when the Western colonial powers (France, U.K., Germany, Portugal...) decided to cut up Africa in new countries it was done with a complete disregard with the above criteria. Hence certain ethnicities ended up being split 70% in one country the remaining 30% in another. Moreover, nomads who used to roam across the continent since ages certainly now were stopped by borders. Take Mali for example, the North is populated by nomad Touareg (Arabs), the South by a black Central African majority. You organize election the South will always win. Worse the fact of having done a "democratic" election officializes legally that they can now rule the North as they want. As long as they were a French colony they were held together (more or less forcefully..), but as soon they got independence the tribal / ethnicity problems started. Don't forget that Taiwan (now a High Tech economy had it first democratic election in 1996 only ! South Korea, another economic giant has their first democratic election after the 1987 mass protests. Freedom of speech, human rights, choice of religion requires first to have a properly educated population. Then sending the best students overseas for them to discover that there exist "other ways". Up to them then to decide to bring it back to their home country or not. Another example : Afghanistan, one has to be a completely ignorant dreamer to think we could transform a deeply religious, traditional country into a "modern democracy".... Because before building a school for girls, what about asking the vote of the father first ? OK, enough phylosophy for a Sunday.

Balifrog

Markit wrote I also often wonder if there was a secret ballot how many Africans would vote for a return of the Overlords from the west?

Not many IMO, but they may vote for the Russians or Chinese ! The reason is simple, the Russians and Chinese speak business. They don't start the negociations by giving lessons on human rights, liberty of expression, democracy and God forbid, the LGBT rights..... Those countries are fed up with the West telling how to behave. Two examples : Recently Niger told the US to move their troops out of the country. The US send a delegation over to negociate, delegation is made.of mid level US official but they ask to speak to the leader of the Niger government. Who of course has them received by a mid level official... First thing the Americans start with is "when are you going to hand over the power to a democratically elected civil government ?" FFS, how stupid can one be.... Needless to say the meeting went badly, and the Americans went home with an earfull. Another one : Two years ago France decided to create an "Ambassador for LGBT rights" ... As the simple idea of this was not silly enough, the first mission they send him to Cameroun, a Muslim country .... Needless to say Cameroun "declined" his visit and declared him "persona non grata" I mean all those people at the top of our governments have been to the best universities are supposed to be smart, but they permanently come up with ideas that are completely idiotic.

Shadrach

Balifrog wrote Not many IMO, but they may vote for the Russians or Chinese ! The reason is simple, the Russians and Chinese speak business. They don't start the negociations by giving lessons on human rights, liberty of expression, democracy and God forbid, the LGBT rights..... Those countries are fed up with the West telling how to behave. Two examples : Recently Niger told the US to move their troops out of the country. The US send a delegation over to negociate, delegation is made.of mid level US official but they ask to speak to the leader of the Niger government. Who of course has them received by a mid level official... First thing the Americans start with is "when are you going to hand over the power to a democratically elected civil government ?" FFS, how stupid can one be.... Needless to say the meeting went badly, and the Americans went home with an earfull. Another one : Two years ago France decided to create an "Ambassador for LGBT rights" ... As the simple idea of this was not silly enough, the first mission they send him to Cameroun, a Muslim country .... Needless to say Cameroun "declined" his visit and declared him "persona non grata" I mean all those people at the top of our governments have been to the best universities are supposed to be smart, but they permanently come up with ideas that are completely idiotic.

This topic really has you going! You praise how the Russians and Chinese focus on business and not basic human rights! What about how the people of these countries have to live in fear of reprisal, if they speak out against their Communists governments and somehow end up in prison or just disappear? And why have you got so much animosity against LGBT rights? Why does this push your button so much? This is a personal matter which should be left to each person and not pushed in Schools, or other public platforms! The same with religion and politics! Why don't we all relax and have a nice meal of French food?

Balifrog

Shadrach wrote 1) This topic really has you going! You praise how the Russians and Chinese focus on business and not basic human rights! What about how the people of these countries have to live in fear of reprisal, if they speak out against their Communists governments and somehow end up in prison or just disappear

Hmmmm, I don't judge other countries system. But I objectively note that - Russia between 1999 and 2020 advanced a lot economically and structurally. Proof is all the "middle class Russian" we see around now. Their agriculture has increased.a lot. Salaries and pensions have improved. - China has pulled 100's of millions of people out of poverty and into a new " middle class". And the political system may be communist, but be assured that Chinese society at every level is capitalistic. There is only one God in China : Money ! Yes there is a price to pay if you want to do in 1 generation wgat other countries did in 3.

Shadrach wrote 2) And why have you got so much animosity against LGBT rights? Why does this push your button so much? This is a personal matter which should be left to each person and not pushed in Schools, or other public platforms! The same with religion and politics! Why don't we all relax and have a nice meal of French food?

I have no anymosity, anybody can have the sex life he wants, however pervert it may seems to others. But don't come shouting in the street that it is "normal" as it is not. It is against nature and against every religion. And FFS dont try to brainwash our kids on TV, in shool or other "educationnal courses". Keep it simple like in the 70's . Rock and Roll, beer, sex, throw the bra away, and a bit of weed.

Markit

Lets all not worry so much about the fools that think they're living in Bali on the 40 square km surrounding Kuta that looks like some kind of dystopian Asian nightmare but have never seen the relatively untouched remaining 5000 square km that is the rest of the island. I'm massively tired of hearing how Bali is shit and it's all changed and how horrible it all now is from those same inmates of the 40sq. km. Get out and visit the island. Or shut the feck up.

meremortal

Wow! just got back to this thread and notice it's gone from my banjar payment enquiry (with payment completed and a clause that it last until 2099!) to comparing voluptuous korean babes with japanese kimono klad dolls and then the russian roulettes and chinese fire crackers. really enjoyed reading how we all process our thoughts. still think, tho, the original wite folk (whether it's vasco da gama or us) destroyed/destroys other cultures and countries with their own mutated desires. i preferred bali when there were no helmets, no cars and no roads ... in fact there were no floors in the 'taverns' we drank. it's making me a bit frightened to return .... especially to become a full-blown resident in the jungle. i say throw yahs idiot fones in the bin and return to the life of spontaneity and joy that first gave me my love for balinese culture.

Foamcrest

100% Markit. As I have said ad nauseum Amed, Lipah, Lean are where you will find what I call ‘the real Bali’. When we built in Penestanan it was a quiet little village and Ubud cultural centre where you could have a night out or see a ceremony. Now Ubud is utter chaos and our little village is a traffic nightmare. In Sydney I live in Newport on the Northern Beaches which is a relatively quiet beach suburb with all the essentials, a supermarket, a pub ( not the Arms as that has been ruined) and various affordable restaurants. I can walk to whatever I want or need. It’s quiet but has all the essentials. To go all the way to Bali, famous for its beautiful people, ceremonies and sweeping rice fields, then bury yourself in a city suburb with all the noise and bussell sounds illogical to me. I will say that Balifrog is the exception to my rule as judging from his blog photos and comments he needs unfettered access to fine food and wine. Of course each to his own but……

Balifrog

Foamcrest wrote To go all the way to Bali, famous for its beautiful people, ceremonies and sweeping rice fields, then bury yourself in a city suburb with all the noise and bussell sounds illogical to me. I will say that Balifrog is the exception to my rule as judging from his blog photos and comments he needs unfettered access to fine food and wine. Of course each to his own but……

It also depends why you come here... For me it is a retirement destination, it is not paradise but a good compromise cost vs quality of life. When in my young Navy days I spend 2 long missions in French Polynesia, I said to my self "JM, one day you will retire in a place like that" Permanent nice weather, great beaches, bleu sea and pretty girls. 50 years later here I am. Let's be clear, I am not here for the culture, the local food, the temples or the rice fields, and I am not "in love" with the place. Just a nice place (Sanur) now that I am 71. Would I have lived here at 35 or 40 ? No way. On the other hand, having visited French Polynesia, the Caribeans, La Réunion, Mauritius, Seychelles, and a few other exotic islands I am a bit a spoiled kid. And I was lucky enough to live for over 20 years in Asia before coming here and having done nearly every country in the region. But as you said, acces to French food and restaurants is a must.

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