Visa / what is considered working and so needs an special visa

you could obviously get a retirement visa , but a working visa may be more complicated because you need to justify it to manpower, strictly speaking you cannot work on a pension visa , setting up a pma these days is very expensive , maybe you could consider working for an established jewelry company and they could organise your visa to be legal ?

As the whole thing is rather small scale I wonder if I should worry about it at all. Can someone throw in a few thoughts on that?[/QUOTE]Just get a retirement visa and don't spread it around that you're still doing your business on the side. Since you'll need to have a pembantu maybe get her/him to be the legitimate face of the business and do everything in their name. You'll need to trust them obviously, but in my opinion it's better than getting tied up in red tape for a business that might not even be worth the hassle.

Just Get a retirement visa, If you are not selling in Indonesia and not employing anyone??

Agree with above.

Sounds as if your 'work' is more like a hobby...as such no-one is going to be bothered unless perceived as a competition....just don't draw attention to it by local advertising.My wife, on a retirement visa, does something similar...she designs necklaces and gets a local jeweller to make to her design. She sells thru' her friends and their associates by word of mouth or pictures on email or makes a donation at charitable events. This doesn't constitute work or a business...to my regret it probably loses money...but keeps the missus happy.

[b]Investing on a retirement visa[/b]Agree with above.[/QUOTE]As do I. All the comments I've seen on this are a bit dated, but I thought what meagre contribution I might make would still be relevant, so here goes my 2 cents:For retirement KITAS purposes, any activity which requires a work permit (IKTA/IMTA) is "work" and is forbidden. For example, retirees on a retirement KITAS cannot earn a wage, salary or generate revenues. Likewise, they cannot operate a going business enterprise that sells goods or services on a day-to-day basis. That much is quite clear."Work" per se, is not defined by any immigration law that I have ever seen in Indonesia. So what precisely what is meant by "work" beyond earning a wage is a gray area. The appropriate authority to make this determination, in lieu of any legal definition of "work" in an immigration regulation, would seem to be the Department of Manpower & Labor. They are, after all, the issuing authority of work permits.What is also clear, is that retirees on a KITAS, are expected to invest. IDX share transactions are fine. A visa holder may likewise invest in a Pt. (either domestic or a PMA). Investing in land development, a restaurant, travel agency, adventure tour, etc., with an Indonesian partner based on transparent supporting documentation, should be fine. Just don't sit behind the till.Promoting the object of an investment to enhance its value and investment return also ought to be legit. The hiring of a lawyer to protect and secure an investment, in court, if need be, should be allowed. To be on the safe side, any capital expenditure should be secured by, a good, tight Investment Agreement. So if an over-zealous immigration official wanted to assume that your writing materials to protect and enhance an investment constituted "work", the Agreement should save the day.Long story short, any investment-related activity, cannot be considered "work" and does not require a work permit by the holder of a retirement KITAS.Many happy returns of the day....

Cisco Kid...What is also clear, is that retirees on a KITAS, are expected to invest...[/QUOTE]It's [B]not[/B] clear to me at all. First time I've ever heard that I'm [I]expected to invest[/I] and I'm now on my 8th Retirement KITAS.I found the rest of your post confusing, contradictory and unhelpful.Thank you? (I think).:icon_question:

Cisco KidIt's [B]not[/B] clear to me at all. First time I've ever heard that I'm [I]expected to invest[/I] and I'm now on my 8th Retirement KITAS.I found the rest of your post confusing, contradictory and unhelpful.Thank you? (I think).:icon_question:[/QUOTE]Just asking Johnny...how did you manage to have 8 x retirement Kitas. I was told that after 5 it is required to start again so was recommended to get a 5 year Kitap/2 year Merp... as it was much simpler, although more expensive in capital cost.I think Cisco is only explaining that a person on a retirement visa can invest legally (stock market, currencies , form a PTPMA, have an RI partner etc).....as it isn't considered employment requiring a work permit (IMTA).

[b]retirees expected to invest[/b]Greetings Cool Johnny,Thanks for letting me address the expectation on the part of the Government that Retirees invest, i.e. engage in capital spending. First, as we both know, retirement KITAS holders are required to hire one or two domestic staff (typically a pembantu and driver), rent/buy a dwelling and a car at least. Beyond that, at a Jakarta conference a while back, I had the chance to hear Co-ordinating Economic Minister Sofyan Djalil, opine that purchasing property for investment purposes, is consistent with a Retirement Visa. In fact, he assured the many expat listeners in attendance, that it is officially encouraged. This expectation on the part of the Government is the main reason that the retirement visa program was formulated: to bring in independently supporting overseas spenders to increase hard-currency expenditures, a top national priority.If you happen to have any evidence to the contrary, I am quite sure we would all like that enlightenment.I regret that you found other, unspecified, content of my comment "confusing, contradictory & unhelpful". Were you to specify those portions, I would be glad to address the disappointing statements. Contrariwise, I was only attempting to make a positive contribution. But of course, its impossible to please everyone all the time, right?Your constructive criticism is much appreciated.

Precisely Davita. Investment activity is beyond the scope of an IMTA or work permit. And I stand by my impression that investment by retirees is encouraged and expected, as a positive boost to the national economy without any impact on the workforce.

Precisely Davita. Investment activity is beyond the scope of an IMTA or work permit. And I stand by my impression that investment by retirees is encouraged and expected, as a positive boost to the national economy without any impact on the workforce.[/QUOTE]I agree that the RI wants FDI and how better than from a retiree's investment...but they never define what and what-not can be done.For example...my wife is ex-Indonesian living with me in Bali on Retirement Kitaps. She is an overseas qualified esthetician. No-one in Bali has her qualification so she began to consult spas as to their professional treatment vis-a-vis what a tourist would expect. She couldn't take direct payment as it would be interpreted as work requiring an IMTA. Instead, she was paid in kind with free hairdo/make-up/massages for me and gas in the car. Still the risk wasn't worth the reward...what if caught and deported...so she gave-up.We would like to invest in a quality spa but need a partner or a burdensome/expensive Pt PMA.....but WNI can open a spa with a simple CV.If Indonesia is serious it needs to reform/define their foreigner requirements so everyone understands, including their own officials......but they are so xenophobic that's unlikely.

Smart move to drop the "in-kind" consulting. Whether your wife had a unique skill is totally off-the-table where immigration is concerned. A speciality is the stuff of what a working KITAS is made (especially for seniors).Setting up a PMA or domestic Pt. or finding one already in existence, (a CV is not a chartered entity) and investing in its spa biz is the way to go. Its quite inexpensive. Promoting, enhancing and securing that investment by ensuring it delivers the correct product, is permissable as no work permit is required. Essential to this scheme is a correctly, purpose-written Investment Agreement (in a [I]notaris[/I] jacket), which defines and specifies your wife's investment relationship with the Pt. and the scope of investment activity contemplated. If the authorities question what she is doing, production of this document should quell any problems. Transparency here is key. Just say the word if you have any questions or comments about any of it. I deal with this kind of thing first-hand, on a daily basis, all the time. That said, no one has all the answers and I like this forum for the exchange of ideas, information & experiences by all kinds of people.

...Just asking Johnny...how did you manage to have 8 x retirement Kitas. I was told that after 5 it is required to start again so was recommended to get a 5 year Kitap/2 year Merp... as it was much simpler, although more expensive in capital cost...[/QUOTE]That was also my understanding. Near the end of my fifth one, I had two main choices: apply for a KITAP, (expensive for me up-front at the time), or start all over again, (which I did). I also stopped using and paying a government-approved sponsor when my Indonesian wife became my sponsor.I don't want to get into too much detail here on a public forum. Given the choices that you've already made, I doubt that I can add anything of use for you. (You can always PM if you want.)I will respond to Cisco's reply, (which I just read), shortly.How's your router extender going?

[B]"Cool Johnny"[/B] here and greetings to you, "Cisco Kid" (or are you "Atlantis"?)It was not my intention to denigrate you in any way. If I did, I'm sorry for that....First, as we both know, retirement KITAS holders are required to hire one or two domestic staff (typically a pembantu and driver), rent/buy a dwelling and a car at least...[/QUOTE]I know that's the theory, but it's not applied everywhere for everyone. For example, I don't employ domestic staff, do rent a premise and don't have a car (in my own name). Why/how is that?The "problem", IMHO, is that it's difficult to find out what is mandatory and applied equally throughout Indonesia. That leads to general confusion and different interpretations of the "rules", depending on which Immigration officials/offices you deal with. Guess it's rocket-science after all (for the central government).A minister is currently pushing to "ease" the process for foreign sailors to get a permit to sail in Indonesian waters. Takes 21 days here and one hour in countries like Singapore, Thailand and even Malaysia. Sorry-off-topic.Thank you for your positive contributions here. I appreciate them.How about addressing the numerous and wide-spread anomalies, rather than telling us what the government wants with its "rules"? We sort of know what they are [I][B]supposed[/B][/I] to be. Precise clarity would be great - probably asking too much there.Still confused.

I was just trying to make two basic points: (a) Retirees on a KITAS can invest in Indonesia and do what they need to do in order to enhance, protect and promote their investment as an investor activity, and, (b) an activity ain't "work" unless a work permit is required. So no wages, revenues, salaries and/or daily biz ops. In a gray area situation, have your [I]notaris[/I] call Depnaker and get it clarified (don't bother calling immigration; they think cleaning your fingernails is work).Johnny be good, ok?Hi regards, Cisco....

How's your router extender going?[/QUOTE]Bad news is I cannot make it work. I have tried the manual connection many times, trying a couple of computers, but cannot get the extender to connect with the router.I'll get back to this topic in detail on the original thread to see if you can help.off to a party now....

...(b) an activity ain't "work" unless a work permit is required...[/QUOTE]If people "invest" in something, wouldn't they expect some kind of return on that investment, (unless it's for a charity)? Isn't that an "activity" to make more money?If immigration thinks that "cleaning your fingernails is work", probably just like shuffling papers and stapling pages are "work", why haven't I been busted for "working"?Definitely glad that the activity of having a dump doesn't require a "work permit" (yet).:icon_idea:

[B]davita:[/B][I]Bad news is I cannot make it work. I have tried the manual connection many times, trying a couple of computers, but cannot get the extender to connect with the router.[/I][/QUOTE]Don't panic! You [B]did[/B] get it working before, right? What did you change [I]after[/I] that? Therein lies the clue. The "solution" is out there, somewhere. I'll help you find it (if I can).Some more details would certainly help.Hope it's a good party...:icon_e_biggrin: