pisang
Hi everyone I have been reading along and decided to join as I haven't seen my question answered with the westerner being the wife (me) and husband Balinese and buying land. I think if I read correctly there is a difference between the wife being Indonesian and husband not when buying as married people.So my questions are..Husband and I are married in Australia and did a ceremony in Bali but not registered in Bali. We didn't do a prenup but as far as Bali is concerned husband isn't married. We are buying land so it will go in husbands name only as I know I can't own land but if my husband dies what happens to our house? Can I still have rights and sell it and get the money? We have one child but he isn't dual citizen just Australian so I don't think we could even put him down to be owner if anything horrible happened to husband. I just want to make sure in case of that happening I want to know I can atleast sell it and take the money from him back home to Aus. Any help or advice is appreciated thank you!
Markit
I think it's interesting you chose a banana as you nom de forum because they are soft, sweet and quickly eaten. I hope that doesn't indicate your demeanor. I'm often accused of being negative to new comers here so I'll be as nice as I can: you are entering a world that possibly could not be worse for you. You will have no rights, as a woman here - the locals accept that, I have yet to see a western woman marry a local and have it work out even remotely well for her. You don't say who's funding the land purchase but if I assume it's you I can only be half wrong: If you do that you will have absolutely no recourse to the land, the money, any children from the marriage or anything else. You will be relying on the good will, behavior and longevity of your husband for as long as you stay in Indonesia. If he throws you out one day after the marriage/purchase is completed his family will back him 150%. Is there an upside? Yes, if you are young, you will have learned a lesson that might serve you in good stead later. That's about it. I'm absolutely sure also that my words will fall on deaf ears but I feel bound to voice them. Please, please don't buy any land here or finance your husband and his family as thousands and thousands before you have done.Rent a small place in his village and spend a year or 2 learning what that will be like before you invest your money. If you want I can put you in touch with 3 or 4 western women that have gone down the road you are proposing and they have first hand experience. But you are probably not interested in hearing the truth are you?
davita
Hi Pisang...(I hope not goreng) and welcome to the forum.Markit has been kind today and if his post appears a little abusive it isn't.....you are a lucky lady.He is absolutely spot on with his advice...you may not even be legally married in Indonesia if your spouse didn't register your marriage in RI....as required.here is a copy/paste from AngloIndo ([url]http://indonesia.angloinfo.com/family/marriage/marriage-abroad/)....for[/url] you to ponder....[I]The Law of Administration of the Population (2006) (Undang-Undang no. 23 Tahun 2006 tentang Administrasi Kependukan) supersedes the 1974 Marriage Law. It states that Indonesian citizens who do not get married in Indonesia will have their marriages recognised. They need to register their marriage with the Indonesian Consulate in the country where the marriage takes place. A marriage certificate is required as proof.When returning to Indonesia, the Indonesian spouse must again report his or her marriage to the local Civil Registry (Kantor Catatan Sipil) if they are non-Muslim, and to an Office of Religious Affairs (Kantor Urusan Agama) if Muslim. This must be done within 30 days, or a fine may be imposed and the marriage may not be considered legal by the Indonesian government.[/I]Even if legally married and he buys Hak Milik property without noting he is married to a foreigner (many female spouses do in their maiden names) it is actually illegal. Some ethical notaries will not even transact the property...those are few and far between but I know one.In the case of his demise you might find it difficult to recover the property. If he inherited the property (there's an idea if he has trustworthy parents) you would still need to divest of it within 1 year of acquiring it....after he passed.
pisang
Thank you both for the responses. I was expecting someone to mention about me getting taken for a ride. We have been married 7 years and paying off our house in Aus. He works more than me and it's his money also going towards the Bali land. All our money is in one account. If he was to run off with the house he would lose his son which he would die for. So no way. We won't be living in it for a while and trying for more kids so I really can't see him doing that.We will be using it as our place to stay when we come visit. Then when kids out of school in Aus we will go live in it. So many many years yet. So if we register our marriage in Bali am I then going to be entitled to sell the land if he passed away? Or if we register then he won't even be able to buy the land because he has married a westerner?
davita
So if we register our marriage in Bali am I then going to be entitled to sell the land if he passed away? Or if we register then he won't even be able to buy the land because he has married a westerner?[/QUOTE]Currently the RI law is, after marriage, all property is community property unless a pre-nup has been set-up. Otherwise, if one spouse is a foreigner and therefore cannot own Hak Milik property, that conmmunity property rule disavows them of ownership. A group of Indonesian spouses have a case before the Constitutional Court to change the rule. I heard we might get an answer from the Court around Xmas...so I'll keep a look-out and post about any results.Another suggestion is...if you haven't yet registered your marriage in Indonesia it might be worth seeing a notary and try to write a Pre-nup before registering as if you are newly married...after all, in RI eyes, that's how it might appear. Sprinkle a little confetti in your hair and good luck. However, the property will be his wholly...if he left it to you, if he died, you would need to sell within 1 year.Leasehold or Hak Pakai property isn't affected by foreign ownership...that kind of property can be dual-owned.Another idea is to give the money to his parents to buy in their name...this is called the nominee system but does need trust. The parents later can bequeth to their son so it becomes inherited, which is not community property. Once again however....it will not be yours.It doesn't seem fair but....welcome to Indonesia...:hopelessness:
DenpasarHouse
Any help or advice is appreciated thank you![/QUOTE]But you are probably not interested in hearing the truth are you?[/QUOTE]Eh?!I'll be as nice as I can[/QUOTE]I think you forgot.G'Day Pisang, you're definitely not on solid ground. In short, if you don't get your affairs in order, every cent you invest in Bali will be most probably be lost. I'm guessing and generalising, but I reckon your husband probably has the same attitude to following proper procedures as most Indonesians have. i.e. "Don't worry, be happy." I apologise in advance if that's not true.Here's a couple of links to get you started:[url=http://indonesia.angloinfo.com/family/marriage/marriage-abroad/]Getting Married to an Indonesian Citizen Abroad | Indonesia[/url][url=http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/16893-obligation-to-register-foreign-marriage-in-indonesia]obligation to register foreign marriage in indonesia[/url]In Indonesia, you'll need to do your own research and double checking. No-one, no matter what they say, will take care of your interests except you. If you think you're not up to adequately checking Indonesian Law and the details of the land transaction, then just stop and forget the whole thing.Here's my back of the envelope list of actions you'll need to undertake to make sure you're covered if your husband dies. Getting these things done will be time consuming and drive you nuts.- Get divorced in Australia.- Get an Indonesian Pre-nup.- Get married in Indonesia.- Get Indonesian citizenship for your kid.- Buy the land in your husbands name.Now after all that, if your husband dies, you'll get the land but will legally have to sell it within a year. At that time, you can probably just transfer ownership to your kid, but I'm not 100% sure of that.However, if you get divorced you'll lose everything because you've already signed away your rights to your husbands property when you signed the Pre-nup.So if we register our marriage in Bali am I then going to be entitled to sell the land if he passed away? Or if we register then he won't even be able to buy the land because he has married a westerner?[/QUOTE]Yes, that's correct. Your husband shouldn't be able to buy the land in the first place. Your husband can't own land WITHOUT a Prenup, and you can't claim your share WITH a Pre-nup.The second part of my advice is how to weasel your way out of the transaction if you've already seemed keen. You need to make up some sort of story to take the blame off yourself and your husband. Maybe get your Mum or Dad to "irrationally" forbid you to go ahead with the transaction or they'll disown you. You might think that's unnecessary, but in my experience Indonesians consider expressions of interest as basically done deals. The land owner has probably already spent the money in his mind, and will feel slighted when you back out.Good Luck!
geedee
Currently the RI law is, after marriage, all property is community property unless a pre-nup has been set-up. Otherwise, if one spouse is a foreigner and therefore cannot own Hak Milik property, that conmmunity property rule disavows them of ownership. A group of Indonesian spouses have a case before the Constitutional Court to change the rule. I heard we might get an answer from the Court around Xmas...so I'll keep a look-out and post about any results.Another suggestion is...if you haven't yet registered your marriage in Indonesia it might be worth seeing a notary and try to write a Pre-nup before registering as if you are newly married...after all, in RI eyes, that's how it might appear. Sprinkle a little confetti in your hair and good luck. However, the property will be his wholly...if he left it to you, if he died, you would need to sell within 1 year.Leasehold or Hak Pakai property isn't affected by foreign ownership...that kind of property can be dual-owned.Another idea is to give the money to his parents to buy in their name...this is called the nominee system but does need trust. The parents later can bequeth to their son so it becomes inherited, which is not community property. Once again however....it will not be yours.It doesn't seem fair but....welcome to Indonesia...:hopelessness:[/QUOTE]This is very complicated you know your stuff Davita So is there any way the non Indonesian spouse can get the property or the money for it
DenpasarHouse
Another suggestion is...if you haven't yet registered your marriage in Indonesia it might be worth seeing a notary and try to write a Pre-nup before registering as if you are newly married...after all, in RI eyes, that's how it might appear.[/QUOTE]I think when you register, they'd want to see you original marriage certificate, so I don't think you'd get away with this. Unfortunately, Indonesian pre-nups (or Seperation of Assets) are only valid BEFORE people get married.
davita
I think when you register, they'd want to see you original marriage certificate, so I don't think you'd get away with this. Unfortunately, Indonesian pre-nups (or Seperation of Assets) are only valid BEFORE people get married.[/QUOTE]I agree....it was only a passing idea worth a shot but I wouldn't be very hopeful of success.
pisang
Thanks for all the info that's great. Yes my husband has that exact attitude. And his friend here buys in Bali and doesn't say he is married so he thinks it ok now! Which is why I'm asking here to find out the legal way to do it.There is no way we will get divorced and do it all again just for some land in Bali.. My husband also said he would just get in his name but make a will to say if he does die his sister is to sell house and all money to go to me and my son., I wonder if a will stating a westerner gets the funds will be legit?? I mean I could die first but I just want to know we won't lose the money if that did happen.
davita
My husband also said he would just get in his name but make a will to say if he does die his sister is to sell house and all money to go to me and my son., I wonder if a will stating a westerner gets the funds will be legit?? [/QUOTE]If both of you trust his sister with a will why not get her to be the nominee owner in the first place and save a lot of transaction fees. She will be the rightful owner on the deed title but a notary can make a statement that she contracts to both of you...you can put anything you like in the statement so long as it doesn't circumvent that she doesn't own it...I have done this with 2 properties (apt. in Jakarta with my wife's brother and villa in Bali with her nephew.)This way, even if your hubby died, you could still live in the property until you decide to sell...but his sister will have to be part of the signing legality when selling.Some will tell you that the nominee can pre-sign a sale order but I'm not sure that is legal...I'd certainly not purchase any property without the seller signing on the line in front of me and a Notary.
DenpasarHouse
My husband also said he would just get in his name but make a will to say if he does die his sister is to sell house and all money to go to me and my son., I wonder if a will stating a westerner gets the funds will be legit??[/QUOTE]That sounds like the opening to a Balinese horror story. I think the sister would suddenly and conveniently forget about your existence at that point, or she'd go to court and claim your husband promised her half or something else dodgy.I thought maybe getting your kid Indonesian citizenship and then buying the land in his/her name might be the answer but apparently dual citizens can't own land. See here:[url=http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/21911-Buying-Land-in-Dual-Citizenship-Child-s-Name]Buying Land in Dual Citizenship Child's Name[/url]Overall, if you don't want to get divorced and remarried, your best bet is to just buy it in his name and afterwards register your marriage in Indonesia. That's as good as you can probably get.
davita
So is there any way the non Indonesian spouse can get the property or the money for it[/QUOTE]DPH, Markit and myself have written from our independant perspectives but I think you'll notice that we come to the same conclusion. Nothing is impossible but needs very careful attention and sometimes a little risk. Depends on the amount of risk one can accept...and how much money is involved.
davita
I thought maybe getting your kid Indonesian citizenship and then buying the land in his/her name might be the answer but apparently dual citizens can't own land. [/QUOTE]Notwithstanding the dual nationality thing a child would need to have a guardian and who knows what the guardian's intent might be if he/she sees a windfall.
pisang
Ok so if hubby buys land now and then we register our marriage in Bali after its finalised will I then have any entitlement? Even with no prenup? Sorry I'm just trying to get my head around all of this!I would use his sister as I do trust her. No way she would go against her big brother! What would this save us though? She can write in it that she can't sell it without both our permission?
Markit
Just rent a place. You say you've been married for 8 years or so? Have you ever lived in Bali with your husband for any length of time (1year +)?The reason I ask is that according to all my friends there's a certain Jekyll and Hyde effect that turns former loving and attentive Balinese husbands into cock-fighting playboys once they get "home". If you are happy and want to stay that way STAY WHERE YOU ARE!
davita
1. Ok so if hubby buys land now and then we register our marriage in Bali after its finalised will I then have any entitlement? Even with no prenup? Sorry I'm just trying to get my head around all of this!2. I would use his sister as I do trust her. No way she would go against her big brother! What would this save us though? She can write in it that she can't sell it without both our permission?[/QUOTE]1. No Pisang...you are a foreigner so there is no way you can own freehold (Hak Milik) land in Indonesia....no way. If your husband buys the land without declaring he's married to a foreigner he is taking a risk. I doubt if anyone will bother but, in the future, if someone malicious found out.....they could cause you guys some damage.2, If you entirely trust your sister-in-law it would be the cheapest way to convey the land from the seller to her. She will be the owner but statements can be drawn up to protect your and your hubbies rights. This will not prevent her from denying those contracts, if she turned greedy or nasty, but you would be able to take her to court over non-compliance of a legal contract.If you decide to go this route please come back here as I know many have done this and can give more opinions and advice.
geedee
This just gets more complicated and confusing(for me anyway).I married my wife in Australia she had permanent residency in Australia before we met and has an Indonesian passport.We have no prenupIf we decide to buy In Indonesia in the future1.Are there simple steps you can take to ensure myself (or my son from previous marriage) get the property if she should die first.2. If so can you list the steps in easy to understand language 3. Is it just easier to lease long term or even shorter term and renew
Fred2
If your husband has a KPT which said single, not married he can buy as much land as he like in Indonesia, you will never have any clam on the land. Do not register your marriage in Indonesia until you need to live here.
DenpasarHouse
Ok so if hubby buys land now and then we register our marriage in Bali after its finalised will I then have any entitlement? Even with no prenup?[/QUOTE]Sorry, I don't think you'll ever get a firm answer to that question, even if you hired a Lawyer/Notaris. My opinion of the average Indonesian Lawyer/Notaris is pretty low, most of them subscribe to the "Don't worry, be happy" philosophy too.My thinking goes like this. After you've bought the land, you must register your marriage in Indonesia. You'll be fined about AUS$100 because you didn't do it when you were first married.Then, if your hubby dies or you divorce, the government may not care anymore how he acquired the land, they may just be interested in how it's going to be dispersed. In the case of death, you've got a good chance of it simply being transferred to you or your dual citizen kid, which will then need to be sold within one year. In the case of divorce, you've already registered your marriage in Indonesia, so he can't claim to have never been married.I would use his sister as I do trust her. No way she would go against her big brother! What would this save us though? She can write in it that she can't sell it without both our permission?[/QUOTE]Yeah? But what happens if your hubby is no longer around? To be honest, it's not really the trust worthiness of the sister that's in question, in the patriarchal Balinese culture you're really dealing with the trust worthiness of her husband. He could simply order her to do whatever he wished. What's her husband like?Also, the Nominee system is just one big bluff, it has no legal legitimacy at all. Strangely, because Indonesian courts aren't the most consistent, that doesn't actually mean that it wouldn't protect you, at least superficially. However, if someone really has a grudge against you and is willing to see the process through. You will lose. Technically, the nominee system is a signed and notarised confession that you've tried to circumvent Indonesian law.The main problem with buying it in your husbands name now is there's a risk someone could dob him in to the government that he is married to a foreigner. However, it's more likely that he would be forced to sell the land rather than having it confiscated. Sorry, I don't know where you'd get a firm answer on whether that is true or not.
