spicyayam
I just heard about a foreigner who got scammed on property deal in north Bali to the tune of 150k euros.
It seems like a notaris was complicit in the scam.I believe there are a few foreigners working like this in the north of Bali. Probably all over Bali, but I have heard these stories for years here in the north. It amazes me how they can get away with it for so long.
tel522
An acquaintance was present at a meeting in denpasar re the potential purchase of a hotel a couple of years ago , so called lawyer asked for a sweetner of 100k $ to complete the deal ,of course it failed . Who do you trust on these Islands ?
mugwump
Can you be more explicit about the details without revealing specifics? Generally how were people scammed?
spicyayam
I don't have any specifics, but trying to find out more. I am also curious as to how these scams play out. I have heard of cases ever since I moved here, but have never met someone who told me how it happened. I have heard of stories of a company who has built a villa on government land for example and then sold it to an unsuspecting buyer.
The problem is that the people who get scammed are afraid or maybe embarrassed to speak up. I would imagine that 150k goes a long way in paying people off. It is sad that this seems to have been going on for years. It always seems to happen to new arrivals.
davita
harryopal
In the case of Eric Gillett, if you are perpetrating a scam and you have got the money, ( $690,000 is an awful lot of wine, women and song ) why would you hang around? Surely the sensible thing would be to just bugger off to some unknown destination. Unless there were a few others nibbling at similar bait and he just couldn't resists waiting to reel them in also.
Mark
Many foreigners come to Indonesia and suddenly become stupid, losing their common sense and doing things that they would never in a million years consider doing in their home countries. This includes getting involved in property deals without understanding the laws, doing appropriate due diligence, getting proper legal representation etc etc. Perhaps it is an overwhelming feeling that they have finally 'escaped to paradise' or just too much sun and bintang. In any case it is amazingly common.
Balifrog
Plenty in Thailand as well....
spicyayam
My wife offers a property due diligence service. Most of the time she has encountered issues. Some were deal breakers and other times there was a solution. I think you need to remember that notaries, work for both sides in a property transaction. Their goal is to get the deal done so they get paid. If they spot something irregular they might not point it out.
mugwump
Mark wroteMany foreigners come to Indonesia and suddenly become stupid, losing their common sense and doing things that they would never in a million years consider doing in their home countries. This includes getting involved in property deals without understanding the laws, doing appropriate due diligence, getting proper legal representation etc etc. Perhaps it is an overwhelming feeling that they have finally 'escaped to paradise' or just too much sun and bintang. In any case it is amazingly common.
The foreigner is often confronted with issues that don't exist in his/her native land and to whom may he/she turn when at that juncture? Certainly it is valid that people are often foolish, but how often can a document be understood completely even when translated? Is the translation understandable in accordance with the foreigner's native language. Each regency has adapted particular forms of legal expression only specific to their regency as to what is stated by a notaris and different in terminology from another. How is the foreigner to find valid legal advice with knowledge that any contradiction may in itself not be correct? Can we be so sweeping in our assertions of ignorance when too often there is little choice in accepting blindly what is presumed a complete and honest job done by a professional who supposedly is competent and honest?
How can there be absolute assurance that "appropriate due diligence " has been performed? Even with care there exists a certain blind faith because there are too many situations where the cards are stacked against the foreigner in these transactions.
tel522
mugwump wroteThe foreigner is often confronted with issues that don't exist in his/her native land and to whom may he/she turn when at that juncture? Certainly it is valid that people are often foolish, but how often can a document be understood completely even when translated? Is the translation understandable in accordance with the foreigner's native language. Each regency has adapted particular forms of legal expression only specific to their regency as to what is stated by a notaris and different in terminology from another. How is the foreigner to find valid legal advice with knowledge that any contradiction may in itself not be correct? Can we be so sweeping in our assertions of ignorance when too often there is little choice in accepting blindly what is presumed a complete and honest job done by a professional who supposedly is competent and honest?
How can there be absolute assurance that "appropriate due diligence " has been performed? Even with care there exists a certain blind faith because there are too many situations where the cards are stacked against the foreigner in these transactions.
Indeed ! , unfortunately because of untrustworthy elements within the system , it is a lottery justice here , especially for foreigners .
Mark
mugwump wroteThe foreigner is often confronted with issues that don't exist in his/her native land and to whom may he/she turn when at that juncture? Certainly it is valid that people are often foolish, but how often can a document be understood completely even when translated? Is the translation understandable in accordance with the foreigner's native language. Each regency has adapted particular forms of legal expression only specific to their regency as to what is stated by a notaris and different in terminology from another. How is the foreigner to find valid legal advice with knowledge that any contradiction may in itself not be correct? Can we be so sweeping in our assertions of ignorance when too often there is little choice in accepting blindly what is presumed a complete and honest job done by a professional who supposedly is competent and honest?
How can there be absolute assurance that "appropriate due diligence " has been performed? Even with care there exists a certain blind faith because there are too many situations where the cards are stacked against the foreigner in these transactions.
All good points mugwump and excellent reasons not to get involved in major property transactions in Indonesia. For those who do charge ahead, though, it is about getting as educated as possible on the law, the process, the property, the potential issues etc. before committing their hard earned cash. Maybe (probably) this requires living in the country for some time, at least a year or two, before taking the plunge...
Mark
spicyayam wroteMy wife offers a property due diligence service. Most of the time she has encountered issues. Some were deal breakers and other times there was a solution. I think you need to remember that notaries, work for both sides in a property transaction. Their goal is to get the deal done so they get paid. If they spot something irregular they might not point it out.
And even more so if the notary is 'recommended' by the seller. A buyer is perfectly within their right to select their own notary to handle the transaction. Anyway, I believe the buyer usually pays the notary fees (seller pays the agent, if any), so appointing your own notary may earn some degree of loyalty or at least goodwill. In our case, we had a problem for which there was a solution that the notary recommended, and he even insisted that the deal go ahead only after the seller arranged the solution, which protected us.
spicyayam
Well, I finally found out the person who is behind this scam. It seems like he has been doing this for years with his wife.
spicyayam
It turns out that this person is not the same one mentioned in my original post, which is saddening as it means there are even more people out there doing this. Almost with no recourse and it seems like many people have been operating for years.
Mark
spicy, I'm sure we would all be grateful if you could provide some background and details on the scam so that we can learn something. Even if you can't identify the perpetrators, at least we'll know what, if not whom, to look out for. Otherwise it seems like the thread is fear-mongering, which is not necessarily a bad thing for foreigners interested in Bali property, but it's not particularly helpful either.
mugwump
Mark wroteSorry to hear about your experience mugwump. You're right, there are few viable solutions for misdeeds after the fact. It seems that you were hugely let down by the notary. Did you choose the notary independently or was it a person suggested by the seller?
The seller selected the notaris who later was in trouble for other problems, lost her certification and retired.
mugwump
Maybe not "name and shame" if this is a small example. If an ongoing thing with a possibility of punishment then why ignore?
To be sure all incidents to be publicly condemned require evidence without bias, but where it exists with an opportunity to warn others it would seem to have merit.
mugwump
It is good that you have learned the details, now how do we go about stopping it? That is a tough question certainly, but I once thought I could seek justice by going to local authorities and those in power. Four lawyers later and meeting with the banjar etc. ........no solution!
I had been shorted on the land dimensions, lacked the necessary stamps on documents by the notaris, sold access via property the seller didn't own, and nothing was ever resolved even with admissions from the seller. If the locals won't seek justice for the abuse there is no solution.
True, I was newer to Bali then, but some of these things are unavoidable if there is no rectifying the dishonesty.
It is with hesitation that I raised this somehow impossibly negative reply, but we foreigners must realize that we are usually on the short end of the stick in buying property without viable solutions for misdeeds.
Mark
mugwump wroteIt is good that you have learned the details, now how do we go about stopping it? That is a tough question certainly, but I once thought I could seek justice by going to local authorities and those in power. Four lawyers later and meeting with the banjar etc. ........no solution!
I had been shorted on the land dimensions, lacked the necessary stamps on documents by the notaris, sold access via property the seller didn't own, and nothing was ever resolved even with admissions from the seller. If the locals won't seek justice for the abuse there is no solution.
True, I was newer to Bali then, but some of these things are unavoidable if there is no rectifying the dishonesty.
It is with hesitation that I raised this somehow impossibly negative reply, but we foreigners must realize that we are usually on the short end of the stick in buying property without viable solutions for misdeeds.
Sorry to hear about your experience mugwump. You're right, there are few viable solutions for misdeeds after the fact. It seems that you were hugely let down by the notary. Did you choose the notary independently or was it a person suggested by the seller?
