Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

Lars, I didn't want to say that she was acting as a name holder....

With respect, to discuss outcomes of court cases without having heard the other side is a bit difficult. My guess is that he will have another story...

Bert wrote:With respect, to discuss outcomes of court cases without having heard the other side is a bit difficult. My guess is that he will have another story...

A very good point Bert!

Personally I think a forum is not the best place to seak for legal advice - there are lawyers in Holland and there are lawyers in Indonesia!

Amen to that Thorsten. Giving or accepting legal advice no matter how well meant in a forum like this could be suicidal. I think folks write to get reassurance og their own thoughts.

There is another problem for foreigners married with indonesian women and owning property:

The fact: a foreigner is married with an indonesian woman and have no children together, but he has children and perhaps grandchildren from a former marriage in his home-country.

How can he manage that the house with land in Bali can be owned by his children/grandchildren after he died. Or what happens with it?

If there is someone who has similar experience or knowledge I would be glad to be informed about that.

johannes

When we “sold” our old house to a couple from California, they wanted some usage rights built into the lease contracts for their 13 year old daughter. The attorney they used worked that into the agreements, but how well that would hold up if challenged down the line is anyone’s guess.

In the situation you bring up, that Indonesian woman would of course have to sign off with her agreement that future use of the property would be for surviving children of her foreign spouse. In any event, the advice of a good attorney would seem to be essential.

So how are things down in Jimbaran these days?

The Indonesian law states that Indonesian property acquired through succession by foreigners has to be sold within one year. If its not sold, the property goes to the state.

(Art 21[3] of Law No. 5 of 1960 date 24 of september)

If they want to use the property, they will have to find a solution similar to "buying" a property.

I just read the following article:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/12/30/discrimination-prevails-mixed-couples.html

In case the link does not go through, I copy the part:

They are protesting against the 48-year-old agrarian law made during the Sukarno era that prohibits an Indonesian who marries a foreign national from owning property, and a Bank Indonesia regulation that regards the spouse of a foreign national as ineligible to borrow.

I am not aware of such regulations, has anyone heard of that?

I've never heard of this law either. I personally know several Indonesians who own land, with certificates in their own name, who are married to foreign nationals.

Sanurian mentioned this subject to me earlier in the year. If I remember correctly, his notaris/lawyer (can't remember which) advised him that even though his wife is Indonesian, if she purchased property in her name it would have to be sold within 12 months or forfeited to the state, because she is married to a foreign national.

Sanurian and Reni were intending to look into this further, but I don't know the outcome. Maybe Sanurian could come back (for a little while, at least) and let us know?

(Come on Phil, we miss you )

Perhaps another example of discrimination against women in Indonesia?

Contrary to the statement in the JP the Agraria Law
http://www.legalitas.org/incl-php/buka.php?d=1900+60&f=uu5-1960.htm
Does not seem to include any prohibition as noted... or maybe I missed it?

Just a point that I found interesting and if it's been covered in this thread already then accept my apologies. But in the process of buying land here in Bali I've run across a number of situations where the women are able to buy (and sell) land and other instance where they are not.

The deciding factor seems to be if they are of Balinese decent then they can't own or sell land but if they are Indonesian (Chinese, Muslim) then they can.

In the case where I am buying the land the Father died in fall of last year and the land can only be sold by the son - mom wasn't even invited to the notary but sonny boy kept having to ask his moms permission by mobile and then getting the notary to argue with mom - hilarious

Its "Adat", Markit.

The Balinese woman are usually not entitled to inherit anything, but only the men are.

Can you imagine it in Holland? The Catholics women can't own land but he Reformists women could - there would be blood in the streets.

Not everything is paradise here, Markit.

“The deciding factor seems to be if they are of Balinese decent then they can't own or sell land but if they are Indonesian (Chinese, Muslim) then they can.”

“The Balinese woman are usually not entitled to inherit anything, but only the men are.”

The first comment is entirely incorrect. Any Indonesian woman, regardless of her religion or province she is from is legally allowed to have property in her name. The idea that a Balinese woman cannot own land is preposterous and entirely false! I challenge anyone to say that to Murni here in Ubud! Murni owns lots of land, and businesses as well.

The second comment made by Bert is partially incorrect and lacks specificity.

Normally land descends within the males of the family, i.e. father to first born son. However, in the event that there are no direct sons, nor any living brothers of the current male land owner, then that land will revert to the surviving wife. This is particularly applicable to family compounds where the overriding concern is the maintenance of the family temples. Maintenance not only includes the physical structures, but of even more importance, the ceremonies and daily offerings.

In this rare situation, the surviving wife will be under some pressure to marry another Balinese male who is not in direct line to assume control of his own family compound (a third or fourth born son for example), and in a specific ceremony, including another tooth filing ceremony, be “adopted” by the ancestors of that compound with the surviving wife. If she chooses not to remarry, which is fine, she will still pursue a male to be adopted by her compound anyway, which she can consider a brother. How this is done is under the adat (rules) of the village. That adopted male may, or may not physically move and live in that compound…it really doesn’t matter.

As for personal property, cars, jewelry, etc. the woman is fully entitled to inherit such things, but when living sons are involved, things like the car will normally go to the sons, as the majority of Balinese women (kanpung based) don’t drive anyway, although, this is slowly changing.

The concept of “ownership” within Balinese culture is entirely different than in Western culture. Their communal style (compound) of living precludes “normal” conventions of ownership, and in general only items of personal use (like a woman’s jewelry) are considered as being owned by a specific person.