Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

Not had a great experience with derrogotory remarks either in Indonesia or in the UK but then we have normally had our children with us and that is a great ice breaker. Now my sons are strapping 6 foot plus and very protective of their mother..... They speak fluent Indonesian, Torajan and any remarks of that nature would be quickly addressed.

My eldest daughter is blonde (In all ways ) whereas my youngest is dark and totally gorgeous. I remember the remarks people said as we were all walking down the street. Youngest daughter was "Cantik" oldest daught was "Gemuk" Boys were "Gagah" Dad was "Botak"and no remargs about my wife. We all had a great laugh and when we all busrt into Indonesia the folks discussing us were "Malu"but laughed as well.

I do find however that most Indonesians are kind and helpful....if somewhat nosy about relationships

if somewhat nosy about relationships

Isn't THAT the truth??!! Excellent point...and something I've grown too accustomed as part of daily life here.

I’d like to pick up DrBruce’s “The consequences of sexual tourism for the rest of us

When the wave of sex tourism swempt over SE Asia and here especially Thailand in the 70th, the German tourism industry was of one of the pioneers.
The sex industry in Pattaya was a product of US forces due to the Vietnam war, after they left new customers had to be found to close the gap, big travel agencies and their charter carriers explored this “new kind of business”, their advertisement was directly focused on single men travellers, looking for some adventure and the images in the catalogues left no doubt about the main attraction of this holiday location, soon these kind of trips have been named “by bang bomber to Bangkok in Germany.

Of course you won’t find any country in the world, where there is no prostitution present, but this was something different now, cheap sex became a main attraction for tourism and from Thailand and the Philippines, this new movement was spread over many other locations too.
Beach, palms, cheap way of life and nice, young girls available for everybody and for 24/7 became the dream of many men, which would hardly attract any women here in Germany, even the average low class worker was able to throw around with money there and felt like a king.

This nailing the dishwasher comment by Markit is probably founded in the context of the next movement, more and more of these guys began to bring their bar girls back home, get a maid, a cook and a sex toy in once and in their naivety, many of these girls expected a prosper life here, which ended mostly soon in disappointment.
Dating agencies advertised the humble, frugal and grateful Thai, Philippino, Vietnam woman as the ideal partner for a special sort of German men, the spouse from the catalogue terminology was now in every mouth.

There is a lot of sex tourism in Bali too, from male and female, I was sitting in a bar in Seminyak once and was talking a bit with a guy from Scottland who just arrived, he was going on a roundtrip for two weeks in Bali and suddenly the guy said, he just need to get a girl for this trip, because it would be hard to get “something” in East Bali, so it took ten minutes and he “booked” one of these girls hanging around there!

For my personal situation – I never had the impression that people considered Kadek as one of these girls, when we travelled around Bali, after two sentences from her every Balinese will immediately realise that it is not like this way and while of course people are coming around, curiously want to see who is this Bule, she brought home, I felt hearty welcomed from everybody there.

Here, where I live, we will have to face prejudices, people will be talking and joking behind our backs, no doubt, but I’m also confident that Kadek will be able to cope with this and handle this and I also know this will change very soon and if not, then I will knock on the shit and probably move to Bali.

Best regards
Thorsten

IMHO Thorsten, you give far too much credit to both American servicemen during the Vietnamese war, as well as German tourists of the 70’s as accounting for the present state of prostitution in Thailand, or anywhere else in Asia for that matter.

Prostitution in Asia is as old as the oldest Asian culture, which is equally true when addressing Western culture. In Asia, once Marco Polo forged a trade route, Western customers were very much welcome. Plenty of Asian prostitutes made their way back to Europe well before the Vietnam war was even thought of, let alone the presence of the French there. Speaking of the “migration” of prostitutes, Macau now has double the number of Russian prostitutes over Asian. The reason is simple...well healed Asian gamblers prefer Western, (blonde, blue eyed, and white), prostitutes and Macau caters to Asian gamblers.

The “nailing the dishwasher” comment by Markit has nothing to do with prostitution, or any ignorance of what prostitution is. Rather, IMHO, it has everything to do with prejudice and racism that can only prosper and grow within a sick or underdeveloped intellect. Combine that with a poor upbringing, you have all the ingredients necessary for continuing this illness.

As already noted by several other posters on several occasions, if Markit wanted to have a discussion on this topic, he could have had it without a whole lot of effort. Once his declarations and warped opinions were made clear...it was obviously time for him to depart, or be thrown out.

“Here, where I live, we will have to face prejudices, people will be talking and joking behind our backs, no doubt, but I’m also confident that Kadek will be able to cope with this and handle this and I also know this will change very soon and if not, then I will knock on the shit and probably move to Bali.”

You are referring to Kadek’s upcoming trip to Germany? What you anticipate is very unfortunate, but two things come to my mind. One is that you are a gentleman, and a great defender of a lady’s honor, the other is that Kadek most certainly, doesn’t need this...which is exactly the same as with Eri and I.

Once again, I wish you both a GREAT time in Germany...full of uncountable happy memories. Cheers.

Roy,

Prostitution is as old as the humankind and its presence is also not limited on Asia, that’s without question.

Of course this nailing the dishwasher comment has all to do with prejudices and that’s what I wanted to explain with this posting – how these prejudices have been created on the example of Germany and no, it has nothing at all to do with racism in this case, the people will actually feel compassion for these Asian girls, while they are appalled about the German guys.

The thing is more, after this development the people do what they always do, they generalise!

Being a single traveller in many parts of the world for years, I could tell you a lot of anecdotes, when I was the first time in Thailand and came back home, I had many times to defend myself.
You was in holidays – where? Ah, Thailand – big giggle!
You have to defend yourself going there and sometimes it was difficult to explain, that Thailand is not only a big brothel !

That’s what the people associate with it on first sight, although it has already changed a bit!

An acnedote only: I teach basic English to an Italian doctor here. I recommended to take an English lady for that but he insisted to have me as his teacher. Anyway, he's in love with a Thai girl whom he met at a bar. But at the same time has this Italian lady as his lover for many years now and who's also my very dearest friend. He met this Thai girl 3 years ago and has taken care of her ever since by asking her to leave Phukett to go back to her village and take care of her 5-year old son.
Now, apart from teaching him English, he confides everything in me about his personal stories, dilemmas, etc that puts me at times in a very difficult position as his Italian lady is a friend that I care for too.
He now has asked the girl to rent a house where all of them will live together for this upcoming summer holiday for the firs time as in the preceding summer holidays, this couple have always stayed in a Hotel.
I can't for the life of me understand how two women can accept this condition, but never evr expressed my opinion or feelings toward them as it is their business and what makes them happy makes me happy too. (When they just know me, they did propose to have a threesome rapport as fun, but I refused subtlely and very politely so they've never ever again proposed that and we're just the bestest of friends in the most healthy and normal manner).
My point is, sad but true, many women in poor countries do make choice based on economy and unfortunately this has been the prevalent view by most Westerners which in a way holds truth. So, I hope for us to not be hypocritical in trying to say that it is not.
Ciao!

I was just talking with Kadek and she reminded me to something I had already forgotten.
We spent some days in Richard’s hotel in Lovina and there was this middle aged female couple which always gave us some strange glances, Australian tourists which openly showed their disgust, refused a good morning from us.
They have been wrong in their estimation, but I must admit I even do have a kind of comprehension for this and sometimes it is not easy to value a situation right.

It is simply the consequence of what had Bruce described – what can you expect when open prostitution is omnipresent and tolerated?

4 star resort Koh Samui/ Thailand – went there alone and had a nice bungalow, after showing up the second day at breakfast without company, went to the reception to get something from my safety box.

Receptionist:
You ale alone hele?

I:
Yes

Receptionist:
Alone not good!

I:
-

Receptionist:
You need gillfliend !!!

I:
Ignoring

Receptionist:
You want gill – I have fol you!

I:
Thanks

Receptionist:
Oh – you like gill, I have nice gill fol you!

I:
No, thanks!

Receptionist:
Oh – you don’t like gill ???

I:
No, thanks!!!

Receptionist:
Mind milling – hmm

Receptionist:
You like boy – I have fol you ?!

Thorsten, that's HILARIOUS!!

So Thor went for option 3, the ladyboy?

ok, i'm aware that this response is going to appear very, very low class but it's honest, so here goes:

i don't particularly see any big issue with prostitution.. is it immoral? probably, but hey i'm an athiest, so i don't have to justify myself to a god.. provided the girl is of age, if a guy wants to pay for sex, so be it, it's the way of the world. that said, in my pre-marriage days of course i had the inclination of course but never the 'courage' to sleep with a prostitute.. this may be too much info, but i'm not a 'rubber man' - it doesn't happen for me, and the idea of engaging in sex with a working woman (one of those amazing looking thai women - argggggg ) without a rubber is not an option. i've got expat mates in singapore who live the sex dream - they're my age, late 20's, early 30's - i don't judge them, they're living another dream.. me, i have a beautiful wife, 2 healthy kids - and that's a different path, and it's own dream..

ct

i don't particularly see any big issue with prostitution

Prostitution is bad. It keeps women dependent, leads to exploitation, people trafficking, not to mention the STD's.

It leads to whole herds of men going to certain destinations (developing countries) to have their "fun". The Japanese go to China, The Westerners to Thailand etc.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvasia.htm

It has nothing to do with a "God" or religion. It leads to commodification of women. (and men)

SCARY FIGURES. Sadly, no government in the region is really serious about stamping out the region's vast "adult-entertainment" industry. You could argue that a crackdown might make conditions even worse for those women that earn a living from it. I'm not interested into jumping into age-old morality debates about whether prostitution is an outright evil or essentially a "victimless crime" between two consenting adults (when both partners are adults).

What's undeniable is that a lot of young girls, by dint of necessity or under coercion, are getting swept up into this maw and are often having sex without protection. The World Health Organization, in a 2001 report entitled "Sex Work in Asia," came up with some startling finds:

• The premium age for sex workers in the region is from 12 to 16, and in Thailand one-third of foreign sex workers are less than 18.

• In India, 40% of female sex workers get in before 18, and in Nepal, 35% enter sex work before 15.

• In Sri Lanka, about 30% of all sex workers have been trafficked around the region.

As the Asia grows richer, more men have the kind of disposable income to spend and travel more. The sex industry will surely expand to meet that demand. So what's to be done? While it's unlikely this trade will disappear, governments can play a more responsible role by controlling the rules of engagement.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... _db004.htm

ok i agree, it's not a good thing. but i'm not going to suggest that i sit here and curse the men who have consenting, paid sex with legal aged prostitutes.. it's a fact of life.. labour is seen as a commodity in many developing countries - is prostitution so different just because of the stigma associated with sex? what stigma might be associated with sex if mankind hadn't 'fallen for' christianity and other mainstream religions?

ct

milan wrote:An acnedote only: I teach basic English to an Italian doctor here. I recommended to take an English lady for that but he insisted to have me as his teacher. Anyway, he's in love with a Thai girl whom he met at a bar. But at the same time has this Italian lady as his lover for many years now and who's also my very dearest friend. He met this Thai girl 3 years ago and has taken care of her ever since by asking her to leave Phukett to go back to her village and take care of her 5-year old son.
Now, apart from teaching him English, he confides everything in me about his personal stories, dilemmas, etc that puts me at times in a very difficult position as his Italian lady is a friend that I care for too.
He now has asked the girl to rent a house where all of them will live together for this upcoming summer holiday for the firs time as in the preceding summer holidays, this couple have always stayed in a Hotel.
I can't for the life of me understand how two women can accept this condition, but never evr expressed my opinion or feelings toward them as it is their business and what makes them happy makes me happy too. (When they just know me, they did propose to have a threesome rapport as fun, but I refused subtlely and very politely so they've never ever again proposed that and we're just the bestest of friends in the most healthy and normal manner).
My point is, sad but true, many women in poor countries do make choice based on economy and unfortunately this has been the prevalent view by most Westerners which in a way holds truth. So, I hope for us to not be hypocritical in trying to say that it is not.
Ciao!

Milan

I have a number of work collegues who go to Thailand regularly and our MD bringing his Thai girlfriend to Australia. Can I suggest you or your friend read a book called "Privare Dancer". If you want to read this book and cannot find it let me know and I will find out the author. I borrowed it and read it and returned it. It is a must to read for any male going to Thailand.

Tina

Hi Tina,

Yes, I'd be interested to read. That way I can relay to my doctor student. He's totally in love but will never give up this Italian lady friend of mine he says. That's why he's in such dilemma and is tearing him apart.
I'll search the book on Amazon. If nothing, I'll get back to you. Thanks, Tina.

Hi Milan

I forgot to add that the book is a true account of what really happened to the main character. When the General Manager went with the MD of our company the General Manager was given the book by a ex pat bar owner in Pattaya and told to read it.

The MD refuses to read it for whatever reason, I do not know.

Nothing new in it for me I have been to Thailand quite a few times over the years.

Tina

Yes, Amazon has the book but it's out of stock. From the look of the cover, I can sense already where the story is going. It looks sinister, but I'd love to read it, by all means.

So, you too are familiar with Thailand. I also was fortunate enough to have been there and even lived briefly in Pattaya for over a year. Made many expat friends there and have very memorable and sweet times.
The food is one of my favourites in the world.