Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

On my last trip, I got to talking about the price of ceremonies with a shopkeeper in Sanur. After chatting for half an hour I really started to feel for the average Bali family. Even though the money isn't coming in like it used to, (pre-bomb days,) the price of these ceremonies is still going up. I was told that the average cost is half a million rupiah, and there are so many of them, for all sorts of reasons. For example there are already 3 major ceremonies before a child turns two years of age. (Times that by 3 kids!... and that's just the tip of the iceberg) Many families go into debt because their beliefs are so strong, but thankfully they are not willing to for-go this custom. This shopkeeper was clearly distressed at the thought of the next one just around the corner. It bothers me that what makes Bali so beautiful, the people, the culture, the faith and the customs may dwindle due to the increasing costs of keeping them.

Good article and point there. It's always struck me as funny that ever since I and my future wife were "pulled" into taking part in an Indian (sub-continent) wedding ceremony and had the times of our lives dancing with the all-male wedding group in a parade through the city of Indore, still remembering it with more fondness than many subsequent "organized" events that were much more touristy , that the majority of organized events are devoid of real meaning and therefore any long-term personal value.

My point being it would be interesting for all parties concerned if the Balinese could find a way to charge the tourists for the pleasure of taking part in the ceremonies and events that they, the tourists, would be taking part in anyway - if they but knew about them???

This would defray the cost to the locals and give the tourists a truly insightful experience in the culture they have come to see.

Oh well, probably only wishful thinking...

Markit, I think it's really time that you'll come to Bali, let's all hope you will get a kind of comprehension for the things there and that you will finally know what you are talking about afterwards !!!

enjoy it !
Thorsten

My old bahasa guru told us that if we were lucky enough to be invited to a ceremony that we should consider ourselves to be extremely fortunate.
I was invited by my good friends in Tuban to attend a celebration of their father's passing. It was amazing! A sensory overload of tastes, colours and sounds. The 18 piece traditional percussion band rocked my socks off, and I was made to feel like a special guest by all. I come from a multi-cultural society that is so blended that there isn't actually any culture at all, apart from booze and sport.
Markit is right, if you are offered to attend one of these amazing experiences, dig deep for the cause, but keep in mind that they are very proud, so insist that they take the donation. I hope that I get invited to one again.

Hey Thorsten,
I didn't write this post so that you could fire off a cheap shot at Markit in broken english.
I question your comprehension mate!

Mileage that's the secret - making the payment or donation, whatever it should be called, in such a way that pride is not injured. With the Indian event I mentioned it was easy to do this as all the dancing public were constantly heating the musicians on by waving and throwing money at them - now that I think of it that's probably why they were so keen on us taking part too - lol!

Thorsten it's nice to see you don't keep your bile spray just for this forum as I see you have just told them on BaliBlog what complete idiots they are there and how they don't have any idea about Bali either... Must be difficult keeping up the high levels of knowledge and intensity of disgust about the rest of us - from the far shores of Germany

Should I respond ?
NO !

THOR... I think you did ?

Mileage, the realities expressed by your friend in Sanur is shared by all Balinese to one degree or another. However, most all ceremonies can be conducted (and the costs scaled) to accommodate the economic specifics of the family. Moreover, the Balinese rely on one another a great deal for assistance from other banjar members when preparing for important ceremonies like tooth filing, marriage and cremations in the same way as they do for public ceremonies at the various temples to be found in each village.

It is not unusual, in fact it is very typical in the three or so days prior to a family ceremony to see the compound where the ceremony is to take place being full of friends, neighbors and other family members helping with all the preparations...in particular the decorations, offerings and food to be served. You’ll see the men busy making sate, and the women cutting and weaving the intricate offering trays...and the kids, well, they will either be busy at play or helping out too depending on their age.

For me personally, it is this community concept of village life that has made my years of living in Bunutan so enjoyable. So many western cultures have all but lost this entirely.

I agree that it is a great privilege to be invited to be invited to a Balinese ceremony, be it a public one, or a private ceremony. These invitations are not extended in the anticipation of any sort of gift, be it monetary or otherwise. These invitations are extended with no other thought in mind than the desire to have you present.

One way to handle this understandable urge to give something in return for the honor of the invitation is to do what the Balinese will do. That is to bring by a 5 kilo bag of rice, some coffee, sugar, and cigarettes in the day or two before the ceremony itself. Or, show up in a working sarong and offer to pitch in with the preparations. Better yet, combine both. Such an effort on the part of tamu invitee will be received with far greater appreciation than an envelope with money. For the tamu invitee, this experience will be worth its weight in gold, and unforgettable.

Markit, what Thorsten was getting at...and very correctly so, is that the Balinese would NEVER allow their ceremonies to be commercialized. That concept goes 100% against Balinese thinking and would be entirely unacceptable.

I appreciate your insight Roy, that was excellent.
I did see all those things that you mentioned. The preparation, all the way to the dismantling of the decorations and the return of the many borrowed items. Being my first ceremony, I did feel like the 27th wheel during the preparation, but now I can go in with a bit more confidence. At no point did I feel obliged by them to give money, however it just felt like the right thing to do at the time, and I did it discretely. The last thing that I would want to do is detract from the spiritualism of the occasion with an offer of cash, but the band can't be paid with rice, coffee and cigarettes, can they? (Actually, that's about what I got paid in my band.)
I don't think that commercialization was Markit's intended solution, but maybe just an understanding that in the current Bali economic climate, a few extra rupiah wouldn't go astray.

We should just do what we can to help.

I'm glad you liked the insight. Just for the record though...

“...but the band can't be paid with rice, coffee and cigarettes, can they?”

Actually, yes! The “band” as you call it, is normally a segment of the banjar gamelan group and for ceremonies within their banjar, they are not “hired” by any means, rather that is their duty. When playing at a public performance, they normally will be paid, but not at ceremonies within their banjar. That’s the way it is in our banjar anyway, and as my wife is head of our women’s gamelan, I am very aware of the procedures.

Thus the role of the rice, coffee and cigarettes, as they are plied with all they need, as well as well fed by the family having the ceremony.

“I don't think that commercialization was Markit's intended solution, but maybe just an understanding that in the current Bali economic climate, a few extra rupiah wouldn't go astray.”

I hear you, but this is what Markit wrote and it sure sounds like commercialism to me:

“My point being it would be interesting for all parties concerned if the Balinese could find a way to charge the tourists for the pleasure of taking part in the ceremonies and events that they, the tourists, would be taking part in anyway - if they but knew about them???”

In any event, I am confident that it was those words which prompted Thorsten’s reply.

Here’s a photo of our banajar gamelan wanita playing for some dignitaries that visited our village last year.

I see your point Roy. Understood.
Great Pic........

I know a very active Balinese musician who plays in various gamelans. We asked him one time what gigs he had coming up, and what he would be paid for them. He told us, naming dollar amounts for several performances, but for others saying “that is for the gods”. Implying that for those, he gets no money - but no doubt the food, drink etc. as described by Roy.

I am sure he is just as happy to play these gigs as he is to play the paid ones: he needs both. Nourishment physical and spiritual.

Good Grief Charlie Brown!

Roy, you and Thorsten need to cancel you subscription to Hairsplitters-R-Us.

What's wrong with commercialization if it keeps people out of poverty?

Presuming, that is that I agree with your characterization in the first place - which I don't.
Is it commercialization when the hat is passed at every church in the world on Sunday?
Is it commercialization when sponsors are asked to donate to good fund raising causes to help the needy?
Are the Masai tribes of the Serengeti commercialized through their utilization as tour guides and living museums? If it allows them to maintain their way of life and cultural diversity?
How about the hill tribes in Thailand?

No, I think not, and neither is it commercialization when donations are gathered by people offering an experience that would otherwise not be so readily available to someone wishing to participate. Particularly if that experience would be enhanced through the donation.

Now if you are talking about waving the flag for Coke or Mercedes at one of these events then I would agree that it is commercialized - but no one has advocated that. Least of all me!

Roy, I have to say that your writing about Bali always seems knowledgeable but, for me personally, always reminds me of those pith hatted travel writers from the early 19th century who were exposing the "noble savages" of the world to the first view of the Victorian public both in the "Empire" and abroad. I'm sure most of us have moved on since then, or not?

I just wonder how noble and savage they would find themselves in your writings and I'm very keen to find out how actively they will refuse my "greenbacks" when I get there.

After 30 odd years of being an expat myself I think I'll share some personal truths with you all:

Markit's Expat Rule No. 1
Bear in mind when being an expat (in most developing, and surprisingly many developed countries in the world) and that is this: If the mother-ship was to come down in your village/hamlet/town and offer to take anybody that wants to, off to America or Europe for good - after the ship has left you will be, pretty much, alone there... So any pretensions you may make to loving their way of life or finding it superior to your own will be viewed, not with appreciation of your good taste but head-shaking wonder at your naivety - but always smiles

Markit, you are offering me endless entertainment with your expectations of what you will find here once you have made your first trip to Bali. Perhaps you were a court jester in a prior incarnation, because you are awfully good at it now!

Nothing is wrong with commercialization Markit, and many Balinese have proven themselves to be extremely able entrepreneurs. If you haven’t gotten the point which has been clearly made on this string regarding keeping commercialism out of ceremonies and spiritual pursuits by now, then why should I bother more?

As for your “mother ship” coming down into my village offering free passage and permanent residency in Europe or the US...what can I say? You are so, so, entirely WRONG about that! Maybe I should forward you the home sick e-mails I have from my cousin Wayan Dedik, now studying for his doctorate in Chicago. Haven’t you read any of Kadeks’s posts from Australia where she often indicates how much she is looking forward to coming home...to BALI!?

And you call ME naïve? That’s really funny coming from a guy who has NEVER stepped foot on Bali before.

After you’ve been here for a week, and presuming that you’re not spending all your time at pub crawling in Kuta, you can prepare me a meal of your words, because I’m telling you pal, you will be eating your own words for a long time, and I will quite enjoy reminding you of those words. No worries though, the local sambal and bumbu makes just about anything palatable.

For some, ignorance is bliss, but in your case, it is downright hysterical!

PS....PLEASE don’t forget your return ticket!

Roy wrote:Markit, you are offering me endless entertainment with your expectations of what you will find here once you have made your first trip to Bali. Perhaps you were a court jester in a prior incarnation, because you are awfully good at it now!

Nothing I have written in this string has anything at all to do with my trip to Bali - use of intelligence and understanding logic are not limited by geography

Roy wrote:Nothing is wrong with commercialization Markit, and many Balinese have proven themselves to be extremely able entrepreneurs. If you haven’t gotten the point which has been clearly made on this string regarding keeping commercialism out of ceremonies and spiritual pursuits by now, then why should I bother more?

Clearly, you are unable to come to terms with the simple fact that the point of this string was not what you want it to be but what it actually was about,which was the ability, or lack there of, of these same Balinese people, whom you profess to love above all things, to be able to afford to continue offering, for themselves and their culture, the type of ceremony that we as tourists love and expect to be part of our Bali/Thailand/Kenya/Navajo/etc. experience due to the exorbitant costs involved.

Roy wrote:As for your “mother ship” coming down into my village offering free passage and permanent residency in Europe or the US...what can I say? You are so, so, entirely WRONG about that! Maybe I should forward you the home sick e-mails I have from my cousin Wayan Dedik, now studying for his doctorate in Chicago. Haven’t you read any of Kadeks’s posts from Australia where she often indicates how much she is looking forward to coming home...to BALI!?

I can well imagine the reams and reams of emails and letters sent home by homesick Balinese - I didn't say that it was a good idea for them to go but the point is, they went! And so do any that get the chance, from all 4 corners of the world. They are wrong to go, I know that, even you may know that, but never the less - they go.

Roy wrote:And you call ME naïve? That’s really funny coming from a guy who has NEVER stepped foot on Bali before.

Poor Roy, what has naivety got to do with location?

Roy wrote:After you’ve been here for a week, and presuming that you’re not spending all your time at pub crawling in Kuta, you can prepare me a meal of your words, because I’m telling you pal, you will be eating your own words for a long time, and I will quite enjoy reminding you of those words. No worries though, the local sambal and bumbu makes just about anything palatable.

I don't believe that I have written anything here that is an open invitation to an argument, you don't seem to need that, but moreover is simply an expression of my belief and understanding, possible false, of the world and not just Bali - as much as you fixate on Bali, it is not alone on the planet and experiences and understanding won elsewhere are still applicable there.

Roy wrote:For some, ignorance is bliss, but in your case, it is downright hysterical!

PS....PLEASE don’t forget your return ticket!

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Always interesting to see your writing turning to personal attacks and general bullying - how sad for a man of your age.