Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

Jamie: I vowed never to comment again on this blog; however, your excellent response to the subject at hand was priceless.


Loved it loved it loved it......

I agree with Bert concerning monthly salary versus public opinion.

However, to prevent the black magic treatment among jealous villagers. Agung says, "simply do not broadcast your salary and buy discreetly---spread the piss around the family." Oh yeah, "remain humble at all times".
Ways to prevent black magic from a balinese.

Almost forgot: Your writing style is fine with me, you spoke with great wisdom and elegance.

Refreshing!!!!!

Dont get me started on 1 day off a month !

I'm sure there are people that have the "I have $200K I can retire in a 'third world' country and live like a king" attitude. That's nothing but a delusion. What do expats do when they have a crisis, medical emergency or get arrested? They call on the "homeland" to help them.

However settling in a place like Bali and throwing money around is only going to bring you grief. Pembantus in Bali get paid exactly what the market dictates. Most of them have little education and no other prospects. If you believe that giving extra money will solve their problems and they will suddenly be better educated and gain highly marketable skills, forget it.

It sounds good in theory and you will probably even get that warm glow of "wow look at me I'm really doing something for this person, paying them more than they would ever be able to earn without my magnificent largesse". It doesn't work in practice. I could write an entire thesis on why it doesn't work. The nut of the argument though is this - it costs almost nothing to pick up a book and educate oneself.

Most of the expats I have met have other ways of contributing. They might employ more staff than is needed, they might give some local jobs writing articles for a web site, donate to charities, pay for medical bills, sponsor orphans and a whole range of other ways.

There are billions of dollars of aid pouring in to Indonesia every year. A large percentage of that money is syphoned off by corrupt politicans and business people. The country is extremely rich in resources but the economy is a basket case. The problems are endemic.

For better or worse we all live in a highly interconnected global economy now. Suggesting that Balinese people are somehow unaware of what is going on overseas or how badly off they are in a global sense is simply wrong. Even they have television and, compared to other parts of Indonesia, much more contact with Western influences.

In my mind there is only one way forward. Every Balinese must take responsibility for educating themselves, becoming political active, not just in the Banjar but nationally and internationally, and for taking a zero tolerance approach to the corruption that is robbing them blind even if it costs them their lives.

In memoriam Pramoedya Ananta Toer RIP.
http://www.une.edu.au/lcl/asianlang/indonesian/pramoedya.php

I feel for all people who dont have basic oportunities that i have . Dont u ever feel guilty ? Do u ever say to yourself , I would like to teach these people to really better them selfs ?

Oh yes I did. The first time I came to Bali. I was impressed by the poverty of the people I stayed with. And yes, I got the "what can I do to help" virus. Went shopping, bought this and that.

And there are plenty of foreigners who feel and do the same. Nothing wrong with soothing you own guilt and giving a few Balinese some stuff.

But after a few years of being here the "guilt" disappears. You cannot care for the poor and homeless in your own country too, all the time.

And when you drive through cities like Denpasar, you maybe get the same thought as I did. "Why don't foreigners start something to influence the rich Balinese to help their own poor?"

Third world charity, or whatever else you want to call it, is a very dangerous thing and should be carefully considered for a number of very good reasons, one of which I would like to share:

Intelligent and considerate tourist we new met a fisherman and his lovely family of 4 children, aged between 4 and 11, in Sri Lanka. Decided to support the children with toys and cloths sent from home. Returned after a year to see how family was doing - father no longer fisherman, now training to be an alcoholic with the money he got from selling all those great western cloths and toys.... children still in rags and now mother gone.

There aint no right way there's just the "best" way, which, may seem hard - pay a fair local wage and try not to upset the applecart.

And lets not forget that there are many people in the world who out of pride, ethics, whatever would rather work and earn an honest wage than accept charity.

This was a legitimate topic in a forum set up to help expats new to Bali. What should people pay their domestic staff - which the majority of expats living here will have to some extent. Bert and one or 2 others gave informative answers. Then we have some others, all who are not currently in Bali judging by their location, high fiving each other coz they wash their own shirts - like 99.9% of people living in the Western world, or suggest that anyone who has staff for 'menial' duties in Bali is grossly underpaying them - by world standards ...cmon guys

When I was getting permission for my villa with the local Banjar, one of the conditions was that I would employ locals of the community should I need Satpams, pembantus, cooks, drivers, gardeners etc. Most of the people I know in Bali have local staff and treat them more as family providing food, medical, at least 1 day off/week, holidays, gifts, bonus etc, and fair market rate judging by some of the responses on here - and these jobs are usually in great demand.

AWoodyinBali, a bit late to chirp in on the pay, but 700k-800k is pretty high.. to tell u the truth, if u didn't wish to be so generous, a live in could be paid only 500k.. but 700k to 900k is a nice gesture for a good pembantu..

ct

Petenjo wrote:And lets not forget that there are many people in the world who out of pride, ethics, whatever would rather work and earn an honest wage than accept charity.

This was a legitimate topic in a forum set up to help expats new to Bali. What should people pay their domestic staff - which the majority of expats living here will have to some extent. Bert and one or 2 others gave informative answers. Then we have some others, all who are not currently in Bali judging by their location, high fiving each other coz they wash their own shirts - like 99.9% of people living in the Western world, or suggest that anyone who has staff for 'menial' duties in Bali is grossly underpaying them - by world standards ...cmon guys

When I was getting permission for my villa with the local Banjar, one of the conditions was that I would employ locals of the community should I need Satpams, pembantus, cooks, drivers, gardeners etc. Most of the people I know in Bali have local staff and treat them more as family providing food, medical, at least 1 day off/week, holidays, gifts, bonus etc, and fair market rate judging by some of the responses on here - and these jobs are usually in great demand.

I'm totally with you on this one Petenjo - Jamie's suggestion of 'giving the money to the nearest mother and kids' is in my opinion patronising and smells of (misplaced) condecension.

Bert's post gave an excellent insight into how we, as wealthy expats, deal with being surrounded by poverty and need on a daily basis - long term.

By the way, I didn't have a pembantu, out of choice - because I like my privacy. But I had no hesitation to employ gardeners to do the heavy gardening from time to time - and usually 5-6 men where 1 or 2 would have sufficed.

Freogirl: Just because a person assists a mother and her children with additional income for food, basic needs, and education does not necessitate the giver to act condescending; however, if an individual acts in that manner they obviously have their brain and heart screwed on backwards.

In the U.S. when people receive scholarships for Universities for their education and living expenses is one to assume the institution providing the help is condescending.....or, are individuals who give charitable contributions to help those less fortunate to better themselves is acting condescending???? I know many people who have helped people in America less fortunate and they never had that type of attitude.

If everyone in the world thought on those terms the world would really be a dark place. When I can help others I feel happy to see the improvement in their lives. Teach a person to fish for a day and they can feed themselves for the rest of their lives. Of course, if the fish disappear then thats another story....

Judy, I am actively involved in several charity works in Indonesia and always follow the princinple of giving a hook to catch a fish rather than give a fish. But that is not the same thing as Jamie's suggestion, which was not to employ a local on local wages but give the money away to the nearest mother with children.

I don't think it is a good thing to hand out money without proper thought to what you are doing. Apart from how damaging it can be, as I said it is patronising.

If you saw a woman, poorly dressed, buying her groceries with food stamps in the US would you think it OK to give her $50? Particularly if she didn't ask. I hope not, that is condecending.

Giving to charity is not the same thing, and I would hope you can see the difference. However even then you need to take care.

Charity that is not well thought out can do more harm than good. I can show you villages where kids are actually worse off thanks to the good intentions of poorly organised charity. One example that springs to mind is a decline in general nutrition standards as kids were taken off their usual diet for substituted noodles and milk biscuits. What a disaster that was!

Like Petenjo I personally know people who's lives are worse off as they depend on the money that is sent to them from well meaning tourists from overseas. Not everyone who gets money handed to them are worse off - but you have to be careful what you do and how you do it.

As you are no doubt experiencing first hand, the extent of poverty in Bali can be overwhelming. It could consume everything you have and then some. So, if someone is to make a life there long term, you need to find a way to live in Bali, and provide as much assistance as you are able, in the right places and in the right way.

If you employ someone and pay them too much, it causes a lot of grief in the local community. It might be well intentioned, but that is just the way it is. There is jealousy, and your generousity is likely to backfire. You are much better served to pay the going rate, be generous when it comes to holidays, hospital/dental bills, bits of extra here and there.

And then get involved in your local community and see where the assistance is truely needed. Put any additional funds you have into well thought out programs that have sustainable, long-term benefits.

Freogirl: Well put, I agree with your last comment. Also, I would not give any funds to a person on food stamps!!!!

Jimbo wrote:It is not a matter of being comfortable but of paying the going rate. This happens in every country in the world. If you pay more than that rate you effect the economy of that country and inflation takes a hold because of it.

It is not a moral thing but a practical one. Those of us that are expatriates and work abroad get paid a higher salary for doing so. If we were to pay the going rate for say a Euripean country we could not afford it.

We are actually creating jobs where there would not be a demand.

Of course Jimbo, and you will be turning down the latest bonus offer from your Saudi employer because of the inflationary effects it will have on the economy.....

Actually, I wasn't having a go at Jogry and wasn't for a second implying that employers in Bali should be paying western salaries. It was merely an observation and I was quite interested in seeing what kind of response it would get.

Where you guys quote "going rate" others would see it as "exploitation". The argument that you are creating jobs where one wouldn't otherwise exist is the same one used by the multinational sweatshops using child labour in places like Pakistan.

This thread is a window into the attitudes of the colonial past. Don't pay the natives too much otherwise they will spend it on strong drink and neglect their children.... I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

And I'm intrigued by your use of the term "Pembantu". Why don't you use the English term "Servant". What are you ashamed of?

But an interesting read nevertheless.

Where you guys quote "going rate" others would see it as "exploitation". The argument that you are creating jobs where one wouldn't otherwise exist is the same one used by the multinational sweatshops using child labour in places like Pakistan.

Absolute rubbish. Who is suggesting using child labour?

Servant/pembantu/housekeeper/paid labourer. Use whatever term you are comfortable with and kindly respect other peoples' right to do the same.

I love all the responses.

OK - Susi comes to our house - 6 days a week, from 11am until 8pm if required that long. I have a very active boy - 2yo, and honestly - I can't get anything done whilst he is is at home as he requires fairly constant attention. You know - having an extra pair of eyes and hands for me is great.

I share the duties of the house, enjoy Susis company, and enjoy the fun with my son and husband.

In Oz, we don't get to do any of that because we are too busy working full-time and then having the daily grind. For me - it is a blessing to be able to come here and have the benefits of help. I am happy to pay well, and if I can help along the way with schooling and other then we will. In order to do this, we have to get our business going first, and when things are good for us, it will be good for all around us.

I don't view Susi as a slave, she is happy to do work and wants to do it - she is an accountant who does not want the pressure any more! She has chosen this job. I guess she is more fortunate than others who don't get a choice because of lack of education. But it just goes to show that education doesn't necesarily mean they will follow a more educated path.

But it just goes to show that education doesn't necesarily mean they will follow a more educated path.

Perhaps Susi still is following a more educated path. Maybe your 2yo will have a firm grasp of balance sheets by the time he gets to prep.

Hi Allan,

A fair chance of that since I am one too!!!!!!!!!!!!