Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

Dunno what to say. What it sounds like is that according to PLN, new customers for electricity can expect to pay two to three times what other current customers are paying.

Anyway, just for grins, what are you building that would require 23,000 watts? Most of us use gas stoves and ovens as well as gas hot water heaters. In our small house, we have 5,000 watts which is plenty to keep two televisions going most of the day, my computer, a washer and dryer, a microwave and a stove top oven. And come to think of it, our hot water heater (small house), is electric and not gas.

In our big house, we have 10,000 watts, but all of that has yet to be challenged, and for sure, we do NOT pay any minimum usage charge. . Anyone who pays a minimum usage charge of over one million against an actual usage charge of 196k is nuts. If someone tried to pull that on my wife, they would be leaving our house without their balls!

For more grins, I just called my buddy who told me that for both his restaurants (four freezers and two refrigerators total) as well as his two houses, he is on 15,000 watts total. As I already advised, his bill runs about Rp 3 million a month.

Something is wrong with this picture. Maybe you should consider hooking up your juice by way of a close neighbor. It seems to me that you could pay both their bill, and yours, and be far better off.

We were planning a large house, but this may need to change now to try and get the power supply down to 13.2 kVA

The neighbour option is one we have actually considered.

Anyway, the house;

540 square metres
plus 35 square metre swimming pool with spa
4 bedrooms, 2 with spa baths

What will consume the juice

7 x 1.5 PK (1100 watt) split system air conditioners
2 x 4 PK (3000 watt) cassette type air conditioners
2 x double door refridgerators
95 x 50 watt halogen downlights (transformer type)
20 x other lights
4 x (2 x 20 watt) fluro lights
8 x security flood lights
2 x desktop computers (24/7)
1 x web/mail server (24/7)
2 x Electric ovens
1 x microwave oven
Electric gate
etc, etc

A few more continuing points.

One, forget electric stoves or ovens. Gas is much better and far easier to regulate the heat when cooking, baking or roasting. Very few of us in Bali have electric stoves or ovens. In fact, I don't know anyone who has an electric stove or oven.

A counter top oven toaster, and a microwave for defrosting or warming, fine, but I'd bag the two electric stoves and oven and go for gas.

NINE air conditioners? And in a four bedroom house?

Hey! You're building in Bali, not hell! Sorry, but that is way, way over the top, and if you really think you need all those air conditioners, maybe you should be paying 5 million a month!

Take out those air conditioners and you just saved yourself 14,000 watts a month!

An electric gate? Hire a full time satpam. He'll be cheaper and can open and close your gate with ease. This is not to mention the impression left on your guests.

No wonder we've been having this discussion! Nine air conditioners!

Just a comment on Mungos suggestion about collecting rain-water.

The rainfall in West Timor is not as reliable as in Bali. On our last visit to family in West Timor, during two days of pretty solid rain, I noticed none of the houses had gutters or any rain collection system so I suggested it. The men in the group thought it was a silly idea because there would be no nourishment in any water that does not touch the ground. Any way, one said, "why bother, getting water is womans work".

Thanks Boo, you have cleared up the power usage issue for me. It is a strange setup in Bali as it should be pay-as-you-use. The potential power is always there. But if you compare what power you are consuming during the day it is likely that you would be close to what we use down here:[list](9-5) little power would be used unless you are home most of the day. We use approx 1270Kw (winter) approx 870Kw(summer) every 60 days in Australia, that is washing machine almost every day, upto 6 lights on regularly from 5pm - 11pm, elec oven once a week, clothes dryer 3 times week, two tv's on from 5pm -11pm daily, electric bore 4 hrs a week, at least one PC running from mains for 6 hrs day, r/c a/c 4-8 hrs a week in winter, electric kettle 1hr week, about the same in summer, microwave 3 times a week for total 15 mins, electric tools 1 hour week.

Roy, interesting about the water situation in Bali. We use a lot of the bottled type when we are there and I wondered how you get along with drinking water. It seems to me that when it rains up there it really buckets down and a lot of areas get a bit of a flood going, which you would think there was better place for the pure sacred stuff to end up.

Norm, sounds like a case of leading a horse to water can't get him to drink. :l:

Hi Mungo,

I agree, a pay as you go system would seem more appropriate.

Even though we were thinking of four bedrooms, most of the time only one bedroom would be used except when family and friends were visiting.
In effect, we would be paying the higher charge all year round, just to have the ability to draw more at certain times. Even when we did want to draw more power we would not use 6,100 kWH in a month although we would have to pay for 6,100 kVA minimum useage every month.

We were also told that the power line into the meter is the same and the only difference is the size of the cut-out switch installed by the electricity company.

Just a thought that may not be relevant. Is there any possibility that they are effectively amortizing the capital cost of upgrading the system to cope with increased demand? In other words charging more for ongoing use because they know the up front cost would be excessive?

Last year our company built an another aged care facility. We were charged $85,000 to connect that building to the electricity grid, althought the power lines passed by the property boundary and there was literally 20 metres of underground cabling required. The reason for the cost was that the draw down was so high that the system in the area could not cope and the electricity authority had to increase capacity for the entire area because of us. So under the recently introduced user pays charging for privatized electricity we had to pay for it, notwithstanding the fact that we are a charity. But strangely our tariff for usage is less than the domestic rate.

Just a few more questions regarding electricity and water:

1. Because electricity costs in Bali ( as indicated on some of the posts ) seem to be almost 1½ times to double of that what I whinge about paying in Aus. and knowing the value of the Rupiah in Bali, how do local Balinese people afford to pay for their electricity?

Bert: "I pay for 5500 watts about 1.5 million per month." Drbruce: "We pay about 900,000 per month." Sander: "we have 3500W and are paying about 800.000 - 900.000 per month"

2. I have always wondered about some the wiring systems I have seen installed in Bali, and no offence to anyone, they seem to lack an earth wire and proper insulating conduits. Do they install earth leakage cut-out switches in with the wiring systems?

3. What do you pay for water usage, do you pay an annual water connection service charge and do you have septic systems and/or sewerage ?

Most of the Balinese I know have much smaller supplies and use much less electricity. No air cons, no fridge or small fridge etc.

EG:

For a 450 watt supply
RP 10,575 fixed charge per month
RP 254 per kWH up to 100 kWH
RP 420 per kWH over 100 kWH

For a 900 watt supply
RP 23,850 fixed charge per month
RP 420 per kWH up to 100 kWH
RP 465 per kWH over 100 kWH

For a 1300 watt supply
RP 36,660 fixed charge per month
RP 470 per kWH up to 100 kWH
RP 473 per kWH over 100 kWH

Plus the 5%

This is the PLN (Indonesian power company) website that simulates an electric/power usage meter given your respective power rate. It is trivial, but I was bored and thought I might amuse myself.

http://www.pln.co.id/simulasi/simulasi_anda.asp

Sounds all quote expensive to me. So for my future house: lots of trees and only aircos in the bedrooms.

As the one who started this thread I thought I'd wade back in to give you an update on what we have achieved & to explain a few things that I have picked up during my research.

Firstly, as I understand it, electricity in Bali is subsidised. There is also a dire shortage of electricity and the situation is bound to get worse as more development happens. As a result, I believe the PLN has taken a policy decision to 'de-subsidise' the electricity and make sure that, particularly, larger users pay their fair share of the true cost of electricity.

So, starting around Feb 2006 the PLN brought in new tarrifs which uses 'Domestic' and a 'Bisnis' rate bands and sub-bands within this which increase as per the size of the supply.

The old rates are being maintained for the time being for existing customers. The new rates apply to new customers. The new 'bands' for Domestic supplies only give a low maximum supply (ie if you turn everything on then the maximum power that you can draw is limited to either 450VA or 900VA). This is probably sufficient for a small local house but is totally insufficient for even a basic 'westener's' house. This means that the locals will not suffer so much from the price hike - which is not unreasonable.

The Bisnis bands give a much larger capacity but they have this millstone of fixed payments per month. Up to 13200VA supply, the fixed rate is not too bad (Rp 1,062,500 giving 1,250KWh per month) but above that the rate is astronomical (Rp 5,185,000 giving 6,100KWh per month). The actual unit rate is the same (Rp 850 per KWh) but the fixed rate is the killer because there is no middle band between 1,250 and 6,100 KWh which is more like where the average 'westerner's' house would fall. You end up paying for power you do not use.

Secondly, on usage and power supply sizes. When you design a power supply for a house you total up all of the power requirements for the items that will draw power including sockets that will not normally be in use. Then you apply a "diversity factor" which accounts for the fact that not all items will be running at the same time and, perhaps, will not have anything in them at all. For my villa, in discussion with my electrical engineer, we used a factor of 60%. I also did some cross-checks to make sure the result was practical - I took a worst case scenario: villa full of guests, getting ready for a dinner in the house in the evening: meaning cookers running, water heaters running, pumps running (for showers), air-con running in the bedrooms, lights on, etc.

Having done all of that, this will determine the minimum amount of power that you will have to get the PLN to supply, obtaining less will mean that the safety cut-outs will trip because you have tried to draw too much power.

Of course, just because you can draw (say) 23,000VA doesn't mean that you will use that amount. I am having a 41,500VA supply installed (more on that later) but only anticipate using around 2,500KWh per month maximum. That is because not everything is running continuously throughout the day. For instance, Bali's climate doesn't really require air-con during the day - a cool breeze in the shade will suffice, even in the 'low-lands' and so air-con may only be needed at night and, even then, not all rooms will be occupied every night; cookers will only be used intermittantly; pool pumps will generally only be run during the day; lights are only on at night; etc.

By way of comparison, I currently live in the Middle East where temperatures are far higher than Bali. I run two 2 ton split air-con units continuously (day and night) throughout the summer and then another 2 ton unit in the evening, plus about the same other equipment that I expect to use in Bali. I use around 3000KWh per month here - I cannot see how Bali will come to more (on average - there may be the odd peak or trough).

Finally, having mentioned the bands above, somehow we have been able to get a supply of 41,500VA (which is a bit more than we need) because we are having to put a larger transformer to serve 3 villas and the smallest that we can get will give us excess supply. We are paying for the installation (which is eye-watering) and the unit rate for the usage is Rp 1,380 per KWh - much higher than the 850 KWh in the 'bands' but we do not have any fixed monthly payment - we pay for what we use, which is an incentive to turn off when possible!

Electricity is expensive in Bali and, it being in short supply, it could be that in time the prices will rise for all consumers, not just the new customers! So, beware!

Hope this is of some use to you all.

Looking at what you're doing Col, it seems that you will be heavily reliant on electric power. Perhaps some solar energy devices like heat collectors (hot water storage) and electric producing panels fed into a battery grid would be useful if they were obtainable at the right price?

Gas has hardly been mentioned and I wonder if it is an economical proposition in Bali, in lieu of some of the other electrically dependent devices? Is it econmoically practiical to run a smal to med. petrol/diesel/gas generator for 3-5f hours per day? I believe Indonesia manufactures a lot of generators.

Anyhow, your post was very interesting and the info useful for those like me, who have little knowledge of something that we all have become dependent on.

We did think about solar power but it is expensive to purchase & maintain so discounted that. We were also going to install a generator but in the end the PLN installation cost was so high that we had to defer that.

We do have a lot of electrical items but we have tried to do it in a way that a lot of things not being used can be shut off. For instance, we have a water heater for each bathroom/kitchen so that only the rooms that are being used will be switched on rather than one big central water heater. Likewise for the air-con.

We do have a gas hob but electric ovens - my wife prefers that arrangement & as she is the star of the kitchen & my tum needs filling, who am I to complain!

The way I came to look at it was that with so many other things being so much cheaper in Bali than where I currently live I would put up with being 'exploited' for the power I like to have!

Cheers

So if I understand good, than this is the schedule for "big" users:

Line P/Kwh Minimum

13,2kv 850 1,1 mio
23,2kv 850 6,1 mio
41,5kv 1380 no minumum

So not counting installation costs then the most sensible thing to do is:

0-1294 kwh p/m 13,2 kv
1294-4420 kwh p/m 41,5 kv
above 4420 kwh/m 23,2 kv

strange schedule.

Almost there, iainsomers. If you look at my posting on page 2 of this thread it gives the bands, fixed costs and power provided. What is not there are the installation costs. For those bands, the installation costs are not unreasonable. For instance, Bisnis band 13,200VA totals Rp10,478,400/-; Bisnis band 23,000VA totals Rp18,240,000/-; Bisnis band 41,500VA totals Rp32,892,000/-. (I have the info on a spreadsheet but don't know how to post it on this forum - any advice?). These costs are, I believe, subsidised or spread over many installations to get an average cost.

However, we chose to pay the actual cost of the installation (ie we paid for the poles, transformers, cables, meters, isolators, fuses, blah, blah) which cost three times that but means that we have not become locked into a fixed monthly payment. It was not going to take long to break even, despite a higher cost usage rate, because we believe that our power usage will be significantly less than the fixed 6,100VA that we would otherwise have had to pay for.

The decision to go that route also had to do with power availablity - there was no availability in our area without installing our own equipment, so basically, we had no choice!

I'm sure all of the above is as clear as mud - but it's about as clear as I can make it given the information that I have been able to extract from my architect, who has extracted it from the electrician, who has extracted it from the PLN (maybe)!!

Cheers!