Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

Bert wrote:Everything changes. All the time, as long as there is life.

Holding on to the idea of the true Bali, what ever that may be, is holding on to your own dream of paradise.

Moral judgement of societies is just (y)our moment in time.

Bali will change, and once the current Hindu culture will be a part of some museum somewhere, just like christianity, the egyptian farao's, American Indians, and the Bali Aga, the people that lived in Bali before the Javanese now calling themselves Balinese came here. Everyone who denies this just pick up a history book.

Bali (Indonesia) will have a transition to a western type of economy and political sytem, simply because they are more powerful movements at this time. Therefore values, beliefs and laws will change as they already have done the last hundreds of years under the influence of the "west". Those Dutch "trading" ships where the start of gloBALIsation.

The land ownership laws (and relations between mixed relationships for that matter) will change in time, when there is less or no difference between the "rich west" and "poor asia". Equality gives freedom of choice.

Bert, you don't often say much, but when you do, it's certainly with gusto!! I'd suggest yours is a realistic perspective, however, I don't think others would agree. Many would hope that Bali always remains the same, as improbable as that may seem.

i don't see that bali will remain the same with all the foreigners and non-balinese indonesian moving there, but... and it's a big BUT, the balinese and their traditions, religion, customs and language should and i hope will always rule Balis and the Balinese peoples future. i want to see all non-balinese living in bali at least TRY to adapt to the balinese culture in someway. I have a few javanese friends that have adapted beautifully and taken the balinese culture serious and with an intrest.. while others don't care and just do their thing. It is ignorant to move to bali and be reluctant to learn anything or adapt to the culture that accepts YOU into their "land". a small island like bali with it's own language, culture, music, religion and ways of life is not something that should be taken lightly nor assume "it will change in time anyway" in the future.

yeah sure, we can put it all in a perspective if you want... ehh.. we'll all plunge into the sun in a few billion years so what the heck screw everything and everyone? ehh.. we'll maby get hit by an asteroid or comet tomorrow?

I say, hold on to the things that mean something and i feel Bali has alot to offer, but not to be altered or converted. sure there may be some changes for good... but it ain't all good. If you moved there just for the good weather and business-opportunities then you've missed the whole point. but hey.. that's just my opinion.

I agree. there's more to bali than partying, sunbaking & making some money if your lucky enough to make money in bali.
Bali offers myself, my daughter & future siblings so much more than I can offer it!
I mean spiritually & in acceptance.
I accept the funny things in Bali, coz it's part of why I love the place & it's people!

I don't think others would agree. Many would hope that Bali always remains the same, as improbable as that may seem.

I also hope that most of Bali will never change. But highly improbable indeed. Everything changes.

yeah sure, we can put it all in a perspective if you want... ehh.. we'll all plunge into the sun in a few billion years so what the heck screw everything and everyone? ehh.. we'll maby get hit by an asteroid or comet tomorrow?

No screwing from my side. (well just a little maybe ) But Bali will change. It needs to change. Pollution is horrible f.i. And if you want to preserve, what do you preserve? Widow burning? Can have men more then one wife? Or just what you think is important or moraly justifiable? The environment where the culture form Bali originates from has already changed. What will remain is what the people over time think is important. If this forgotton music isn't documented, please do. Maybe the Balinese will go to a concert hall in a few hundred years to listen to their Mozart.

widow burning? Can have men more then one wife?... bert, it's all in your head! clean up that mess you got inside of there and get back to me with some better examples.

i'm not "just a thinker" or "observer". i'm actually trying to do something about it. when i went up in lovina i had to remind many balinese to use their own language instead of Indonesian(deeply disturbing). Pleanty of Balinese up north doesn't even speak balinese anymore. I also reminded several non-balinese that learning Balinese is actually a GOOD thing and if not for yourself it shows that you honor the balinese people and culture. now if only "our bule-community" could do the same and not just use english or stumbling on accented indonesian. we can afford dictionaries, we can afford teachers, we got balinese friends and relatives... why not try to learn something and surely .. the day you'll speak balinese and understand everyone else in their native tounge, you'll get a different perspective on everything in Bali.

bert, it's all in your head!

Last time I looked, most of it...

you'll get a different perspective on everything in Bali.

Like what?

Hi Doc,

I half agree with your post, i.e. learning Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Balinese. In my case, I must admit to a certain level of laziness in not learning either, or as you say, preferably both. However, my laziness has turned out to be helpful in negotiating business deals with sellers, feigning complete ignorance and letting my wife do the negotiating. Also, having three boys, who I want to all learn Indonesia, Balinese and English, my insistence on English has really helped with their learning, as they know if they want to talk to dad, the have no choice but to speak to me in English. They get Indonesian from their mom, Balinese from our and staff as well as their mom’s family, and 100% English from me…with bits of Indonesian and Balinese thrown in…just so they don’t think dad is TOTALLY dumb!

This has worked out very well as Bima, our four year old, is quite good in speaking all three languages, and Rama, our next oldest is starting to get it all. I'm not all that certain that without one parent operating totally with English, that they would pick it up at the early age I want them to pick it up. Moreover, I’m not sure that if I was fluent, in both Indonesian and Balinese, as you are, that I would be as insistent as I am in their using English with me. Anyway, one has to justify their laziness somehow, eh?

Roy, I must agree (as I am lazy also!)
We live in Oz & therefore she speaks English, but also have spent many months, more so earlier in her life (she's almost 6) in Bali with Gede's family & friends.
She picks up the Indonesian very quickly, but then not using it in OZ also loses it too, but will listen to Gede on the phone & knows what he is saying etc. My in laws do not speak much Balinese, except with Dadong etc... So I am not thinking she will pick up Balinese unless we wanted her to be taught which may happen when we move to Bali permanently when we will both have to learn.
Maddy is also doing extremely well with writing & reading in her class & has passed many of the students a year ahead of her & is in a special class, she is also excelling in her Italian language class!
They only teach Italian & German at her school & I see a need for neither, but they had to choose one!
My nephew is learning Indonesian & it is the only class he hates!!! go figure!

Well that's enough bragging about Maddy, although her picture of a butterfly has been chosen as part of a school Art exhibition & it's opening night tonight in a local artists gallery, so ofcourse we are proud as can be & heading there tonight!!!!

Tracey....what can I say? To our each, we are our own. I truly respect the "Doc's" points, and I can't argue with him. His points are valid, and, "spot on."

When it comes to kids, as you well know, things change. As parents, our job is to do the best we can.

For me, that means raising them in Bali, and not the US of A. I've written this a hundred times, and I will write it again....there's no place like home...and home is Bali.

"Like what?"
what can i say bert.. you'll know and feel the difference when you get there.


nyonya tracey and om roy... I'm sure your kids are gonna grow up to be very bright multi-linguisticians. (i just made that word up i think... ) It's good that you have someone to throw in some balinese in there.

/the Doc

Very interesting to learn about the things you all want and/or expect for Bali and its people. But what about the question this topic started with: "investing money". I am very curious what you, the bali connoisseurs, think about that.

rien rien rien... we dropped that subject ages ago. /the Doc

DrIvEr...
I love that word!! I make up my own words often...
Not as often as my hubby, as he says things & then we just laugh as neither of us know what it was he meant, let alone was saying!
He asked if we could go & buy Running Pyjama's.... Which eventually we realised meant a track suit!?

Roy, I agree, I am not 100% happy about being in Oz at the present, but with my job & Gede's job we are here at the moment & want to make the most of this opportunity & hopefully can set ourselves up for a happy, long future in Bali...
We will be there forever then & so for now we tolerate waht we have to do to make ends meet!

Saw her painting last night, it was actually quite a formal evening with white & red wines flowing. As well as foods, cakes etc...
There were art exhibitions for a total of 55 schools, each school only allowed to choose 25-30 pieces of art to be displayed, so we are exceptionally proud of her having hers chosen, I told her once we get it back I will laminate it, so she can keep it forever, might actually get it framed & hang it!!! With some of my paintings which I don't have time to do anymorre, but maybe one day will get back to!?

Well, the investing thread was only minorly interesting since I'm just a teacher, but the turnoff on to language is quite interesting as a parent, anthropologist and teacher.

Without getting overly academic about this, my plan was similar to yours, Roy. The kids would get English from me and Indonesian and Balinese from Su. That worked fairly well (much better than friends who were mixing and matching with Mom using poor English with the kids and Dad poor Indonesian, Balinese or Javanese), until I had to go to Pakistan in search of money. Over the next four years the first three kids lost most of their English, although the two oldest still retained some.

In the past year that we have all been living here in Sumbawa, I have tried to speak as much English as possible in order to develop their English language skills, but I often give in and speak Indonesian when they don't get what I mean in English. Slowly, slowly it's working. The youngest, Meredith at 5, knows all the favorite terms for our family dog like "you idiot dog," "sit down and eat your food," "shut up and go to sleep," " Get in the water, you stink." Phrases that she will find very useful in Indonesian life in the future.

In terms of teaching people of another culture how to live their culture, I have serious reservations about that as an anthropologist. As a young anthropologist studying a small Native American tribe in the mountains of California over twenty years ago, I was presumptious enough once to suggest to a tribal elder that they really should do something about preserving what I saw as a disappearing culture and language. He pretty much set me straight about what an anthropologist's role should be - he used the analogy of coming into my house and telling my wife and I how to raise our children. I kept my mouth shut after that and let the Karok do what they do best - live their lives. Eventually they set up language classes for the younger generation, but they did it on their own without any interference from an outsider, no matter how well-meant the interference, and my take on the matter is that change only has meaning if it comes from within - not from someone telling them how to live their lives. Well, enough said. Another day of teaching and then this is beach cleaning week here in southwestern Sumbawa. Kids from all over the area collect trash off the beaches for two days. My wife is catering the deal - and what a mess that is.

Cheers,

Bruce

Dr. Bruce! Great post, and most interesting to see things through your “professional eyes.” For me, I am sort of in between. I respect and admire…oh hell, I’ll just say it…I’m jealous of DrIvEr being so fluent in both Indonesian and Balinese, and must admit to a certain embarrassment that I am not. The majority of my fellow expat friends are pretty good with their Indonesian…but only a few are fluent in Balinese. My “Guru” Jero Tony is one, but it was easy for him as his mother was Balinese, his father Dutch. Andy Toth, the past US Consul is another, but he’s a Phd, and a past professor at Brown University…so learning must come easy for the true “brains” eh?

I also agree with DrIvEr when he encourages Balinese to learn their own native language. It must be embarrassing to some Balinese he meets that can’t speak Balinese, and here he is, a Bule, who is able to speak it very well. At the same time, your story of your experiences with the Native Americans rings very true in my ears. I have found myself in similar situations, of course not as an anthropologist, or a professional in any manner…simply, as DrIvEr would say…as an observer.

Often I regret the fact that I am not bi-lingual. I think this is one of the greatest educational deficiencies in the American public educational system. I agree with DrIvEr that my cultural experiences living in Bali would be greatly enhanced if I were proficient with the language.

There is an excellent book titled BALI, LIVING IN TWO WORLDS, that I have often mentioned and referred to in other posts. This book is a compilation of essays written by Balinese about Bali, and how it is changing. It is illustrated with a fabulous photo essay by the renowned photographer, Rama Surya. It is edited by the great scholar, Urs Ramseyer. If you don’t already have a copy, I can’t encourage you more to get one as it is a very insightful read. As I read it, I found myself completely identifying with the dilemma that is so well expressed by these Balinese writers. As Bert says, change is inevitable, and of course, Bert is right. Our role, as expats, in particular those of us who have invested our all into Bali, and how we influence this change, is a constant topic among many of my closest friends. There is never complete agreement, but it sure is interesting conversation.

So, in any event…Selamat hari raya Kuningan to all!

My family has believed in the power of communication through willingness to learn languages as paramount to understanding the world. My children, all adults, were expected to learn indonesian and balinese, during their summers in Bali. After 20 years, they are fluent - speaking, reading, and writing(indonesian only here). They are so comfortable that most Balinese Ibu's bring out all the daughters to try to get them to marry our sons. It is always a subject of amusement to see the interchange, and it is usually the same - lots of incredulous laughing, getting some time to round up the daughters, while testing the ability level in each level of balinese language. Our daughter is not treated the same way that the boys are regarding her Balinese language skills, she tends to just listen to conversations people don't belive she understands. A really good way to figure out who cares about you and what is going on about the village. Village gossip is just spoken in balinese where we are, so it's fun to pick up normal spoken levels. For young children with university/college plans, chinese is going to be helpful, however.