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Yet another non-contributor who expects full and detailed answers to vague questions that to the casual eye seem naive.
Do you reckon this was a troll?

And,I thought he was getting the kind treatment, what a lightweight,,, jeez... either a troll or the biggest pansi I have ever seen, what a whine bag...

FreoGirl wrote:Yet another non-contributor who expects full and detailed answers to vague questions that to the casual eye seem naive.

Perhaps you are right but this should not be an excuse to give answers that are definitely not truth.
Like Jimbo who writes: Bear in mind also that real antiques are not allowed to be exported.
Not correct you can apply for exportdocuments

And
Tintin: In Bali, there are practically no real "antiques" to speak of. This shows he a. knows nothing about antiques or b. never have been on Bali or c. is totally blind.

Maybe it would be better not to give "advice" on subjects one knows nothing about.

Also very true.

I have to agree with Rien. In Indonesia it is easy to export antiques. But there're better places in Indonesia to find 'real' antiques then Bali. And also 'antiques' has many ways. (I don't know how to say in English but there're many different 'antiques')

rien.gluvers wrote:

FreoGirl wrote:Yet another non-contributor who expects full and detailed answers to vague questions that to the casual eye seem naive.

Perhaps you are right but this should not be an excuse to give answers that are definitely not truth.
Like Jimbo who writes: Bear in mind also that real antiques are not allowed to be exported.
Not correct you can apply for exportdocuments

And
Tintin: In Bali, there are practically no real "antiques" to speak of. This shows he a. knows nothing about antiques or b. never have been on Bali or c. is totally blind.

Maybe it would be better not to give "advice" on subjects one knows nothing about.

Rein, this is a public forum, no one here professes to be an expert in any particular field, and the answers and advice given are mostly subjective and opinion. As Bert has said before, this is not a Bali helpdesk, providing the answers to all those questions people wanting to live in Bali might have.

I'm sure Jimbo and TinTin posted from their knowledge on the subject. It may not be entirely correct, but the original question was pretty vague and didn't ask about permits, export business etc.

I've seen lots of incorrect information on this board and others over the years. I don't think that anyone has ever intentionally posted incorrect information, they are just trying to help.

I don't agree with "Maybe it would be better not to give "advice" on subjects one knows nothing about". Obviously these guys thought they knew something, and it's better to have a reply than none at all, if only for the poster to clarify a bit more what he is interested in.

FreoGirl wrote:I don't agree with "Maybe it would be better not to give "advice" on subjects one knows nothing about".

I think we can agree to not agree about this.

Both replies were so obvious not correct, that if this kind of misinformation will stand, the value of this forum will devaluate to a place where not to look for information.

Just because those statements where made by members who contribute a lot makes is worse. For a new member it should be possible to have some trust in the input by regular posters. More so if they show in a lot of their answers to think of themselves as “Bali connoisseurs” .

OK, rien.gluvers, I'll bite.

First, you'd better re-read my two posts on the subject, and maybe get yourself an English-Dutch dictionary while you are at it, because I clearly stated that my comments should be taken for what they are, i.e. coming from observations, which are NOT those of a professional.

1)

Since it is not my business, I have no idea how one goes about getting them ("old things").

and

2)

Like I said before, I am not in antiques, so I can only talk from a "pedestrian" point of view

Let's look at couple of definitions of "antique."

1) An item which is at least 100 years old and is collected or desirable due to rarity, condition, utility, or some other unique feature. Motor vehicles, tools and other items subject to vigorous use in contrast, may be considered antiques in the U.S. if older than 25 years, and some electronic gadgets of more recent vintage may be considered antiques

2) Any piece of furniture or decorative object or the like produced in a former period and valuable because of its beauty or rarity.

In Europe, "antique" surely does not apply to some object 25 years old, but the object should be at least 100 years old. And I believe that professional antique dealers would not consider an Indonesian item "antique" if it were only 25 years old.

In my post, I wrote:

In Bali, there are practically no real "antiques" to speak of.

Notice that I did NOT say that there were NO antiques in Bali. Furthermore, there was a bias in my statement, in so far as I had implicitly in mind, Bali "antiques." My apologies to you for my bias.

Anyway, I believe that you are 100% correct when you say that "he" (I)

…a. knows nothing about antiques

(see my statements above, describing me as an expert antique dealer)

…or b. never have been on Bali

(you must mean "to" Bali). But you should give me some credit: I am in the process of saving my money, so that I can some day visit the place, which by all accounts sounds pretty neat.

…or c. is totally blind

.

You must be right (although I don't need a white cane yet), because a friend of mine, just returning from Bali, told me that one cannot take a step on Bali without bumping into an "antique," in Kuta, Seminyak, you name it, but especially at the Ubud market, and at Pasar Seni in Sukawati.

PS. By the way, last time you were in Bali, you must have seen lots of "antiques," bukan?"

My last question to you, rien.gluvers, was a rhetorical one, because I know you must have seen lots of antiques when you were in Bali: there are even signs on some shops along some roads, which advertise

"Antiques made to order"

Rien

My advice was gien honestly because he wanted to set up a business. I presumed that this would be some kind of shop where he would sell mainly to tourists. Tourists have little time or inclination to apply for export licenses and so I thought there was little merit in trying to give more detailed answers to very vague questions. I also asked what was his target market without getting an answer.

Your very good friend Roy said that you cannot export antiques without a licence so I am guilty as charged in not adding this on to my previous statement.

I shall be watching your further posts with interest to see what advice you give to those that enter here. In fact I believe most new folks should be sent to you as the rest of us obviously know so very little.

Jimbo wrote:In fact I believe most new folks should be sent to you as the rest of us obviously know so very little.

Not a good idea. I know (most of) my limitations and try to act accordingly.

it's christmas time and everybody is in a good mood

I thought I would revive this string since it seemed to end on a sour note. Moreover, in reading this string, I haven’t read much of anything that offers factual or accurate information. Additionally, this is the area in which I have either made my living, or at least supplemented my income since my college days.

The very mention of the word antique in association with Bali will often result in a raised eyebrow from many who have tried to find one that was not “made to order.”

There is a very good reason for this, as for certain, the vast majority of what is touted here in Bali as antique is likely no older than a new born baby. That is not as a result of a proactive scam, but rather it is a more loose association of the word “antique” to the look of antique.

In Bali, three kinds of items which are called antique can be found:

A) Total fabrications or reproductions made from new materials but with a patina (a finish or surface) imparting an aged look.

B) Partial fabrications using authentically old elements in combination with new elements to create an even more convincing appearance. This phenomenon is most often found in antique furniture where old parts are combined, or re-cycled with new parts to present a great looking item that overall can appear completely original.

C) Authentically old and original antique items that are not fabrications and are of a genuine age consistent to the appearance.

Obviously, pieces that fit into category A or B are very easy to find all around Bali. The shops here are burgeoning with such pieces, and they make up a large percentage of what should be classified as production arts and crafts. Such shops can be readily found all along Jalan Legian in Kuta, areas of Seminyak, Legian and Jimbaran, within hotel gift shops, all along the by pass road heading north from those points, Ubud, the environs of Ubud, north Bali, etc, etc,...ad infinitum. For the great majority of visitors to Bali, such pieces “fit the bill” for exactly what they are looking for...a highly decorative piece to bring home and enjoy for its decorative only qualities.

However, for the purist, or one who is really looking for authentic items, the items I classify as C, pieces can still be found, but that requires the same effort as is most likely required in finding genuine articles from your own culture back home. In other words, there are just as many, if not more non antique pieces being touted as antique in the Portobello Road market London, as are here in Bali.

While it is hopefully understood that I am not about to give away all my trade secrets, I am happy to share some of what I have learned over the years.

In Bali, and for that matter, most everywhere in Indonesia, one of the most likely areas of authentic items to be encountered is trade ceramics. The vast majority of these will be from China, and dating as early as the T’ang Dynasty, and the Sung Dynasty, when trade with the Majapahit empire intensified greatly. However, pieces from Vietnam and Thailand can be found here as well the result of intense inter-coastal trading.

Indonesian soil (clay) is not suitable for the high firing necessary for total vitrification as with stone ware or porcelain. Only low fired earthenware was made in Indonesia. As such, the most popular trade items imported into Indonesia during the first millennium was in fact ceramics.

I am still amazed on visiting other compounds here in Bali to occasionally find authentic plates, bowls, pots and storage jars dating from the Ming Dynasty, (16th century) and earlier, still in daily use. Their condition is usually not good...chips, cracks, worn over-glazes, etc. but nonetheless, here they are. It’s pointless to ask anyone in the compound, “where and when did you get this?” The answer is always the same...a shrugged shoulder, and a look of confusion as to why one would ever ask such a question in the first place.

Another source that has often been fertile to me involves temple re-construction. In such endeavors, some amazing sculpture, both in wood and stone may well be chosen by those Balinese in charge of the pura to be replaced by new materials. Temple cloths are also often replaced...the whole idea being to keep the God’s home as good looking and visually appealing as possible. By selling such items...those designated to be replaced, funds are quickly raised to cover the costs of re-construction or “face lifting.” Those items are generally not of great age, as in qualifying as antiquity, nor are they of cultural significance as to be better staying in Bali.

A third and fertile source can be found with Indonesian collectors. While it may seem surprising to some that there are Indonesian collectors here, the fact is, there are quite a number. As with collectors the world over, they will often sell a piece to help fund the acquisition of something else currently absent from their collection, and of great desire. Such collectors are here and some of the finest pieces we have ever been able to purchase have come from them.

As a final word, and contrary to often read misconceptions, authentic antiques and art pieces are most generally legal for export out of Indonesia. There are exceptions, most notably being stone carved sculptures of real antiquity and tribal art material containing parts from endangered animal species. Compliance to Indonesian cultural property laws, as well as international treaties such as CITES and UNESCO can easily be arranged through the Department of Archaeology. Photo certificates certifying the age, as well as approval for export can be obtained from this department, and acknowledged credible dealers are able to supply that document for such items.

For the novice, this field can seem cloaked in mystery and full of dangerous pot holes. It is. It is no different here than anywhere else in the world, including the well known markets of NewYork or London. Cheers, and for the cognoscenti, good hunting.

I finally read the last post, Roy. Well said!

Hi Roy,
I am not sure that the definition of "antique" has a universal application (although I believe that it does), but that definition requires that an object be at least 100 years old.
Don