Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

[Sanurian]

I am not a Balinese, but have lived on their island for many years.

The island is straining at the joints. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is a rapidly approaching point when 'development' here will turn into an incurable disease.
Maybe Bali will turn into some kind of Hindu theme park.

If westerners like you, Petenjo believe their own statements, such as:

Water use? Nice stats, but we're talking Bali which is in the tropics and has significant natural precipitation and not some resort in the Arizona desert.

God help us all, especially the Balinese.

As if Bali has an endless supply of water, so no problem?
Excuse me, but that is just patent bullshit. Golf-courses are very thirsty.
Why don't you get a copy of 'Ecology for Dummies'? (And read it!)

[tintin]

Petenjo,

Based on your comments about my latest post, I wonder if, as you write in your brief profile under your picture, you are indeed a resident of Pererenan, Bali. Most likely, your "residency" must be limited to few surfing trips, otherwise why would you write that you found my remarks on how business is conducted in Indonesia as "condescending and almost racist" to the Indonesian people? You obviously haven't experienced how big business (never mind the more mundane transactions) works in Indonesia.

First, it is a fact that Indonesia is, and has been for some time, near the top of the lists for most corrupted countries. But maybe you don't read the news? I could give you several examples that I have witnessed or be involved with personally. But keeping it on a non-personal level, what about the on-going illegal expropriations of Dayak tribes all around Kalimantan? The illegal logging in National Parks? Land theft and human rights abuses at the Freeport McMoran's mine, in Papua? Closer to home, the establishment of tourist facilities in Bali Barat National Park (and refugee settlements from Timor Leste)? And of course, as mentioned in my previous posts, the Serangan expropriation and the establishment of the Nirwana Golf Course? Etc. All of these happenings have nothing to do with the regime: it has to do with people. Does this state of affairs bother me? Yes, it does. Can I do anything about it? No, I cannot. Does it prevent me from enjoying Indonesia and its people? Absolutely not.

Returning to the actual subject, I find it ludicrous to claim that the 600 (?) new jobs to be created (there are far less than 600 people employed either at the Andara or Nirwana golf courses), would provide better opportunities to the farming families and their children. The sales of the sawa would certainly affect many more people in a negative way. I used to have a friend who lived in Tenganan (he now has passed away), and he told me that the village, (as a whole, like everything else in Tenganan, including the village itself) collectively owns about 2,000 hectares of very good land. The Tenganians do not work the land themselves, but rent it to sharecroppers from others surrounding villages, and with whom they share the harvests 50/50. Now these sharecroppers would not be compensated: they would just loose their jobs…

I wonder who is naïve?

[Bert Vierstra]

I hope we can have this interesting discussion without personal attacks, plz?

[tintin]

Yes Bert, we'll do, but I am still OK with Petenjo (or is it GRRR?): I still haven't used any 4-letter words or any allusions to his ancestry or relatives...

[BaliLife]

i love bali... i love golf too... and so do tourists for whom balinese are dependant... let us hope a balance can be struck...

ct

[Dolphin]

I think the topic simply demonstrates how Bali may be trying to hard to attract visitors/tourists. There are certain basic infrastructure requirements for tourists to come but the government should realize that part of Bali's attractions is its culture and traditions - at the very least it is for me...and its natural beauty (sawah included)...that's why I prefer and keep going back to Ubud (not Nusa Dua, Seminyak, Kuta or Jimbaran, etc). They should try to preserve the culture and traditions - I applaud Ubud local people/government who has been trying very hard to do that - no night club in Ubud yet...

Bali government should have clearer vision as to how the island should move forward - become another hawaii or keeping its traditions/culture/natural beauty?

But times have changed. The younger Balinese may find working at sawah to be too much of a back-breaking work compared to working in hotels and golf courses - especially given fluctuating rice prices and uncertain harvest. Having said that, it's a known fact that most large developments in Indonesia (Bali included) can't get through without some 'palm greasing'...and many (if not majority) are sponsored by bigwigs from Jakarta.

[Petenjo]

tin tin me ol' scrapper,

You are obviously very passionate and care deeply for the Indonesian people, great stuff, and as I stated from the outset, we ALL agree that displacing people from their land or encroaching on sacred land for ANY development is a bad thing. Now can we put that one aside or take it elsewhere as, well basically, we all agree, and a debate where all agree, well, it isn't a debate really.

Now just to clarify a couple of your mis-assumptions

Firstly, yes, I lived and worked in Jakarta and know how deeply corruption is embedded in Indonesian society, from the traffic cop taking a 50K rupe backhander to ministers taking multi billion Rupe 'wheel-greasers'. What I objected to was the assumption that this is the ONLY way business gets done.

Secondly, yeh, I have property in Prererenan (Indo friend nominee), pass through there every 2nd month, purchased from a lovely Balinese lady at a price she was very happy with, with no-one bribed and no lads sent around to give a good kicking to detractors, and no objection from local Banjar on my development. Which led to my objection stated in mis-assumption 1 above and my reasoning , mistakenly apparently, that some other developer, albeit on a much larger scale, may also be able to acquire land through legal means with all parties happy.

But what gets my ire is the topic thread title, in CAPITALS, no less "YET, ANOTHER GOLF COURSE ON BALI". There's 3-1/2 of the bloody things on the island! And now you have gone and used the title which would have been better off saved for something like "YET, ANOTHER 5 * RESORT", there's lots of them, or "YET, ANOTHER RUSSIAN MADE NUCLEAR PLANT", they can be really nasty. Now you have wasted it on a recreational facility...a bit selfish really

OK, the environmental stance, my bad into getting drawn on that point. An unwinnable position as any development by proxy will consume natural resources and generate waste, very unpolitically correct, so backpedalling from the outset - it's just everyone's responsibilty to minimise impact, and sure, raise awareness as much as possible, as I'm pretty sure
there will be more hotels, more golf courses (but hopefully no nuclear power plants) being built on Bali in the near future. Will the infrastructure be able to sustain it? Well, I'll have to seek further guidance from Sanurian on that one.

Lastly, tit tin, I didn't get the Pendejo thing. I hope you weren't being rude or resorting to name calling...that's just childish....

[tintin]

Petenjo,

Your original posts had given me a totally different impression of your Indonesian experience, and with the above you have corrected my presumption. But, with all due respect, I would say that your views on Bali and its problems need to be honed. Now that you are the proud owner of some property in Pererenan, there is no doubt that it will happen.

Regarding your comments on my used of CAPS to announce my displeasure at a possible new golf course in Bali, I can assure you that their use was intentional, reflecting my true feelings about the project. I would not worry about "YET, ANOTHER RUSSIAN MADE NUCLEAR PLANT," because it would require orders of magnitude more water than a golf course, which even the Jakarta mafia knows is not available.

Finally, regarding a bad play-on-word on your nickname, let's forget about it: it is a common apostrophe heard among Latinos, in particular during arguments. Actually, I am puzzled by it: what does it mean or refer to?

[Person]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pendejo

Definitely not appropriate and definitely not allowed under the name calling rule.

[JAMIE]

NICE !! Tin Tin I think your filling Roys shoes !

[tintin]

Flattery will get you nowhere, Jamie. Beside, Roy is a much bigger fellow than I am, so, even physically, I could never dream of filling his shoes (or his flip-flops).

[JAMIE]

..TIN you have a good sense of hummor ...