Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

[Roy]

I wonder if anybody's looked for a correlation between "improved roads" and "accidents"?

Only you Phil.

And BTW, when you write,

For many, the "improved road infrastructure" means they can drive/ride faster.

Who is "they?" You drive, don't you? Are you not included with "they?" Don't YOU live here too?

Not to mention any names, as I won't, I did get this e-mail from someone else here on Bali, with far more than equivalent longevity to you, and who had the following comment to add regarding your observations of driving in Bali. Yah, I know it's not fair to not come clean and say from whom this comes, but you can rest assured, it is an authentic observation, so maybe you can you read it within that light:

Sanurian's comment below on fatalities on Bali roads:

"Only last night I was driving home along the By-Pass road in Sanur and spotted a local motorbike rider bearing down behind me at break-neck speed. There was a gap between me and the car in front of less than one metre, (no exaggeration), and the fool took it! "

Now wait a minute here . . .

My recollection of Driver's education is that Sanurian should have been driving at only 16 km/hour as, by his own admisison, there was only one meter between him and the car ahead.

Giving Sanurian the benefit of the doubt, based on his criticism of local driving habits, and further assuming that he is a highly cautious and disciplined driver, I'm going to surmise he was only traveling at between 15-20 km an hour as he followed the car ahead at a "safe" distance for that speed.

His near stationary speed explain why he saw the other driver as "breakneck"and also why the motocycle driver chose to go ahead of him.

In mitigation of the motorcyclist's behavior - you have to give the rider marks for outstanding skill. For reasons that are not clear, a reconstruction based on Sanurian's report is that the motorcycle rider when from driving at a very high speed and deaccelrates to only 15-20 km of speed while adroitly shifting his two-wheeled vehicle into the the "lless than one meter" Sanurian had allowed between his car and the car ahead! Now that's driving at its best.

Is it manic-depressive road rage when Sanurian goes from a crawl admiring "up close" the details of the rear bumper of the car ahead of him to a spirited chase of the motorcycle in an effort to give him what for?

The only possible reason a motorbike driver would undertake such a tactic is clearly not because he was in a hurry. Why would he hurry up just to slow down? I'd suspect that he was trying to irritate Sanurian. By Sanurian's account the motorcyclist was successful, prompting him to partake in a chase, shouting match and the preliminaries to a physical altercation.

Now, don't get upset Phil, as I'm just passing on these words. As you know, I have never driven in Bali, and I never will.

[FreoGirl]

I wonder if anybody's looked for a correlation between "improved roads" and "accidents"?

Only you Phil.

Actually I agree with Phil, better roads = ability to go faster. The ability to drive faster does correlate with more deaths - any country's road stats will confirm that one. Speed kills.
But it is not the only factor pushing up the death toll in Bali - there are more people using vehicles than ever before, so the death toll rises with that too.

[Roy]

OK, that’s fine. I have no problem going back to dirt roads, rocks and all, and at our next banjar meeting, I’ll raise this issue. If it saves money, (which it will), it will pass in our village.

Many thanks Freo for the “heads up” on the “value” of improved and paved roads, versus kampung dirt roads. Your thoughts never occurred to me!

[Bert Vierstra]

Traffic deaths in the Netherlands (2007) 791 people

Traffic deaths in Indonesia (2002) 51.000 people (139 a day)

Roughly 2.2 traffic deaths a day in Bali (2002)

(Comparable to the Netherlands, but... population Bali: 3.5 mill, NL: 17mill.)

Rate of road deaths in 1999 per 100,000

United Kingdom 6
Sweden 6.6
Norway 6.8
Netherlands 6.9
Iceland 7.5
Switzerland 8.2
Japan 8.2
Northern Ireland 8.3
Finland 8.4
Australia 9.3
Germany 9.5
Denmark 9.7
Canada 9.7
Irish Republic 11
Italy 11
Hungary 12.9
Austria 13.4
New Zealand 13.4
Luxembourg 13.5
Belgium 13.7
Czech Republic 14.1
France 14.4
Spain 14.6
USA 15.3
Greece 20.2
Portugal 21
Indonesia (2002, my own calculation) 23.5

But, the mobility of the Indonesian people will be less than the other countries mentioned, so.... And the the type of vehicle as well..... motor cyclists have a much larger chance of getting killed than car drivers.

If all calculations are right, and my guess too, I think that if we put all Indonesians in a car instead, figures will be the same (or better) as "the west".

Oh, and I heard that in the "good old days" of tourism, 2 tourists a month died because of motorbike accidents...

[BaliLife]

How the hell could one have enough discipline to stay focussed on the mirror???

[Roy]

The funny thing on this string, as I read it anyway, is that what we really have going on here is a clash between the West and Bali. Thanks Bert for your stats, and here to follow are more.

Totally absent from this discussion is the reality of traffic deaths in the US...just to mention ONE western country. So, here are some facts for 2006:

WASHINGTON, July 24, 2007 The number of deaths on U.S. roads fell last year to a record low fatality rate but motorcycle deaths rose for the ninth year in a row.

Last year, 42,642 people died in traffic accidents, a drop of 868 deaths compared to 2005. The 2 percent decline in deaths contributed to a low fatality record of 1.42 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled, U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters announced Tuesday.

Deaths of people in passenger vehicles continued a steady decline to 30,521, the lowest annual total since 1993, Peters said. Injuries also were down last year, with passenger car injuries declining by 6.2 percent and large truck injuries falling by 15 percent, she said.

The number of motorcycle deaths rose by 5.1 percent last year to 4,810, marking nine consecutive years of increases, said National Highway Traffic Safety Administration statistics.

[Sanurian]

...Who is "they?" You drive, don't you? Are you not included with "they?" Don't YOU live here too?...

I presume you meant "Who are 'they?'.."

I do, indeed, live here, Roy. And have been driving here far longer than you've been staying here. Ooops...almost forgot. You're too chicken to drive yourself. You're definitely missing some adventures in that department.

...Not to mention any names, as I won't, I did get this e-mail from someone else here on Bali, with far more than equivalent longevity to you, and who had the following comment to add regarding your observations of driving in Bali. Yah, I know it's not fair to not come clean and say from whom this comes, but you can rest assured, it is an authentic observation, so maybe you can you read it within that light:...

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me, and others, what you mean by this phrase of yours: "with far more than equivalent longevity to you". Huh?

I couldn't care less where you got your alleged email from. Maybe I should feel honoured that some idiot spent a lot of time writing that mindless, unintelligible drivel in the first place! And of course, if you attest that it's "an authentic observation", it must be true. Is that correct?

Mate, I'm stuffed if I know what drugs you're on, or what your "problem" today is. Come on! Show us all the source and identity of the "phantom e-mailer". Yes, I'm calling your bluff! Go ahead - prove otherwise. I'm mildly interested.

These kinds of posts only vindicate some normal forum members' criticisms of this forum in general. Like, too much childishness, petty bullshit. Some of it might be entertaining for a few. I'm not sure of the rest.

If I'm the only person to suggest a link between bigger roads and more accidents, so be it. More's the pity.

[Sanurian]

...If all calculations are right, and my guess too, I think that if we put all Indonesians in a car instead, figures will be the same (or better) as "the west"...

I doubt that, Bert. Whilst the figures you quote are interesting in their own right, one cannot randomly compare statistics from 1999, then jump to some from 2002 and make anything really meaningful out of them.

The other, or the main difficulty with these kinds of figures as they pertain to Indonesia, (in general), and Bali, (specifically), is the lack of available up-to-date statistics. Where are they? Figures from six years ago don't shed much light on what's going on right now!

I drive every day and have been driving here for many years. Also in Java. If I don't see an "accident" somewhere every time I venture on the roads, I start thinking it must be either Nyepi or the petrol ships have been delayed again.

My gut feeling is that there are increasing numbers of road tragedies in Bali. I can't comment on the "rate" because I don't have the figures.

Tonight is Saturday night here. Malam Minggu is always a time for extra caution - more maniacs, more drunks, more fights, more "road rage", more drugs, more dramas...I wish everybody a safe outcome.

[Roy]

I do, indeed, live here, Roy. And have been driving here far longer than you've been staying here. Ooops...almost forgot. You're too chicken to drive yourself. You're definitely missing some adventures in that department.

<Deleted by moderator poster put on moderation>

[FreoGirl]

OK, that’s fine. I have no problem going back to dirt roads, rocks and all, and at our next banjar meeting, I’ll raise this issue. If it saves money, (which it will), it will pass in our village.

Many thanks Freo for the “heads up” on the “value” of improved and paved roads, versus kampung dirt roads. Your thoughts never occurred to me!

I did not suggest that Bali go back to dirt roads Roy, why do you have to respond in such a childish manner?

As my earlier post attested I have personal experience with the results of poor road safety in Indonesia. Dirt roads are dangerous, so is speeding on improved roads, so is riding side-saddle, and riding without a helmet.

There well may have been more injuries and less deaths in the days when the roads were poorer and speeding not as easy to do. And less people had vehicles. Many things attribute to the high road toll, some of which I raised in my earlier post - but I don't agree that only Phil would think that better roads means faster driving = more people die when previously they may have just been horribly injured.

[Roy]

I did not suggest that Bali go back to dirt roads Roy, why do you have to respond in such a childish manner?

If that is how you see it, that's fine with me.

[tintin]

Roy writes,

However, given my ever deteriorating eye sight, (I’m due for another cataract surgery), especially at night, a slowing down of reflex time,

We do find ourselves in the "same boat" (although I joined you at the much later age of 71). Last October, I had not been in Bali for two years, and it was a great disappointment to discover this physical deterioration, when I started driving again my motorcycle.

As for your remark about my driving a motorcycle in Bali in "1967 or 1968," you are correct, just a typo: make it "1987 or 1988." In 1967 and 1968, I was teaching at "Big Farm" (Ohio State U.), in Columbus, and was hardly aware of Bali. I thank you for the correction.

<Deleted by moderator poster put on moderation>

[Sanurian]

Bugger!

I missed Roy's retorts.

I wonder what was in the:...

Deleted by moderator poster put on moderation...

...stuff that we can't see?

Guess we'll never know...

Then again, there's always tomorrow.
What do you reckon, Roy?
Having a bad day in Paradise? Or what?

[BaliLife]

Bugger!

I missed Roy's retorts.

I wonder what was in the:...

Deleted by moderator poster put on moderation...

...stuff that we can't see?

Guess we'll never know...

Then again, there's always tomorrow.
What do you reckon, Roy?
Having a bad day in Paradise? Or what?

i share your curiosity on this sanurian - am kicking myself for not having checked in earlier! doh!

ct

[SG]

I don't think it's a "cultural" thing. Your comparisons with western countries are unwarranted. Sure, there are idiot drivers/riders everywhere, but given the relatively small size of Bali and the sheer numbers of "lethal weapons" on its roads, I think you will find that on a per-capita basis, Bali is way over the top, in its "accident" figures. Whatever statistics one looks at.

I think the comparison I saw elsewhere was that you are six times more likely to die on the roads in Bali as Australia.

The police in Bali only count those who die within a short period after the accident as a road death, and only those in or on a vehicle I believe whereas most other nations include all those who die as a result of an accident.

Interestingly, I was in a cab today in Mangga Dua and a cop pulled him over for not indicating and refused to take a bribe from the driver, issuing a ticket instead.

One good cop I guess. Or hopefully it's a new broom.....

[BaliLife]

I was in a cab today in Mangga Dua and.

I've only been there once.. I hope I see hell before I get dragged back there again

Ct