Indonesian Justice


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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Roy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:28 am

“I never stated the 60 million was the fee in Bali because I suppose it changes all over Indonesia.”


I know you didn’t state that Jimbo. What you did state was,

“My brother in law tried to join the police and failed because he could not raise the 60 million it needed to pay to join.”


While most of us veterans to this forum know that your family is from Sulawesi, to the casual reader, your statement could just as easily been meant to apply to Bali, this being a Bali forum. I don’t think you want readers here to be led to believe that a police job in Bali costs 60 million, anymore than I do.

You also stated,

“You do not know what is going on apart from your parochial world.and on this you make all your assumptions.”


You’re absolutely right Jimbo, and my “parochial world” is Bali, specifically the Ubud area. However, I make no assumptions about what I know from my long experience of living in my “parochial world.” Look at it this way Jimbo...I would never presume to tell you about Saudi Arabia, or more currently Kazakhstan, because you live there. You might cut me a little slack Jimbo, and presume that the same is logical in so far as me in Bali.

No amount of Googling or Yahooing will substantiate anything near your statement that corruption in Bali is on par with Nigeria. If you honestly believed that, you would never be considering your land deal around Lovina.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby maxpower on Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:34 pm

Are the Bali Police different to the Indonesian Police, Roy?
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Roy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:31 am

“Are the Bali Police different to the Indonesian Police, Roy?”


That question leaves me with more questions, as it is open ended and unspecific, but if the question is geared towards the make up of where the vast majority of the police in Bali come from in Indonesia, then the answer is clearly yes, as most of the police in Bali, are in fact, from Bali.

During the years of laying the foundation of the Republic of Indonesia, and as late as the Presidency of Pak Harto, the Kepolisian Negara Republik Indonesia or Indonesian National Police was the dominant structure of the Departemen Pertahanan Keamanan or Department of Defense and Security. All aspects of the military was under their control...army, navy and air force.

The so called 1997 “police law” changed all of that. These days, the police have their own territorial organizations made up various provincial jurisdictions. Each of these jurisdictions, known as police regional command, is now administratively sub classed at the regency and even village level. That is what we refer to when we say Polda.

Not to intend to further complicate this, but within this provincial structure, there are para-military police units, which are better trained, and act primarily as anti-terrorist units but still under the command of the provincial chief of police...to a point. In their non field uniforms, you can’t distinguish them from “normal polda” except for a unique patch on their regular uniforms. In Bali, (and elsewhere in Indonesia), they still maintain separate barracks and facilities. If you are at all familiar with police structure in the US, it would be fair to compare them to SWAT. These units are more wisely deployed in areas of Indonesia where riots, movement towards separatism, or terrorism, is at higher risk, or when special tactics, expertise, and firepower is called for.

I hope it is understandable, as well as logical, that an effective on the ground, day to day police force entrusted and engaged with the primary responsibility of “normal” law enforcement issues, such personnel are best recruited from the population they serve to protect. That is most certainly the case in Bali, and I’ve been told that it is the same in all the provinces of Indonesia.

In this regard, the answer to your question is yes, the Balinese police (to a great extent) are indeed different to the Indonesian police. The understanding of local customs, adat (village law) and indigenous local language is essential for law enforcement at the provincial and regency level. Similarly, the police in Aceh should be expected to be different, and are, from the police in Ambon. This has been appreciated, understood, and implemented in Indonesia for over ten years now, and in my humble opinion, far over due to be appreciated and acknowledged.

I freely admit that I get very testy when things here in my home are unfairly criticized, or brought to the level of Nigeria as fair comparison. To expect that in all levels of democracy, Indonesia should be on par with other western cultures, like the US or the EU is ludicrous! Indonesia is a new democracy, and with very uniquely challenging road blocks...like some 15,000 pieces of her body spread out a vast distance, and within each, finding some 400 unique ethnic cultures.

It was one thing for American patriots to unify just 13 land bordered colonies during its quest for democracy. Here, in Indonesia, the challenges have been vastly more daunting and more insurmountable than in any modern democracy in recorded history. IMHO, every Indonesian, from Aceh to Papua, should be proud, as there is damn good reason to be proud. And, shame on them who compare Indonesia to Nigeria.

To the negative pundits, I suggest they start learning Indonesian history, compare and contrast with their own country’s history, and cease offering blanket statements based on opinions that are preconceived from ignorance or complete lack of first hand living experiences.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Jimbo on Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:52 am

You might cut me a little slack Jimbo, and presume that the same is logical in so far as me in Bali.

No amount of Googling or Yahooing will substantiate anything near your statement that corruption in Bali is on par with Nigeria. If you honestly believed that, you would never be considering your land deal around Lovina.


Roy

as to cutting slack...Done. Your polite reply impressed me.

As to the second, I did my own googling and found what I had stated was true. On a survey of over a 150 countries they were graded on a scale of 0-10. with 10 being no corruption and o being totally corrupt. Indonesia was a score of 2.3 and Nigeria 2.2. There were others worse going down to 2.1 but none of the remaining countries were supposed to be civilised. Indonesia was also classed as the most corrupt country in Asia.

The good news is that Indonesia is getting better than the year before. I wish the above facts were not so as I genuinely love Indonesia and Bali in particular, warts and all but I have to be aware of its faults so I do not fall into any traps.

Because I believe in the people I think it will get better as the years go by. As an aside I was very impressed by the tourist police in Lovina last time I was there. They were both helpful and courteous and an example of the changes that are going on.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Roy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:49 pm

Geez Jimbo, does this mean on your next trip to Bali, (arriving the 24th of March), we might be photographed hugging each other?

Sure I know those old stats. Most of those statistics, which I view as questionable anyway, given the manner in which they were compiled, were, none the less, compiled from data during Pak Harto’s last years. For instance, data released in 2002 was often date compiled in 1997or earlier.

I am also painfully aware that if anyone Googles or Yahoos terms like corruption Indonesia, or corruption Bali, or even Mangku Made Pastika, what first comes up is the vicious work of the “mad hatter of Bali.” I hope we all understand and accept that the mad hatter is indeed mad, and nothing found on any of his outrageous sites should be accepted at ANY level as truth. I am also aware of UN agencies’ “score cards” which are all too often centered on Tim tim and Aceh. Lots of human rights abuses to be found there, no question.

Separatist movements within the Republic of Indonesia should be taken very seriously by the Indonesian government. Such movements in another young democracy resulted in the bloodiest war of its history...the American Civil War. I sometimes wonder what Bush would do if Hawaii or Alaska said, “selamat tinggal” to the union of American states. If they dared, would it be allowed? No question...NO.

Anyway, I did do a search on the most corrupt countries in the world, and this is what I found:

Most Corrupt Countries, 2007


Rank Country
1. Myanmar

Somalia

2. Iraq

3. Haiti

4. Tonga

Uzbekistan

5. Afghanistan

Chad

Sudan

6. Congo, Democratic Republic

Equatorial Guinea

Guinea

Laos



The Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index defines corruption as the abuse of public office for private gain, and measures the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among a country's public officials and politicians.
Source: Transparency International, 2007. Web: http://www.transparency.org.




Please note the basis under which this study was made:

“The Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index defines corruption as the abuse of public office for private gain, and measures the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among a country's public officials and politicians.”

You need not wait for it to get better here as the years go by, and in your last post, you have already recognized that. Things are much better, and improving every day. Thanks for recognizing that, as it is the truth.

You and I, each with our own Indonesian family have experienced the unique character and all the other compelling aspects that have caused us to embrace our Indonesian families and the roots from which they come. As you astutely say, you love the people here, and you, as well as I know damn well, they deserve our love, admiration and respect. That just about sums up what I am about here on this forum...in a nut shell, that is truly all.

So, back to my original question. Would I enjoy such a photo? You bet I would and I have little doubt that in time, it will be taken.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby jorgen on Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:37 am

this is not getting this discussion any further.
I want argue with anyone, but Roy is absolutely right at least about what have happened to, not just Bali, but the whole of Indonesia. Today, the police force is much better and moore focused on what they actually is employed for than for 15 years ago. One point is the new organisation(wich i didnt know about until Roy wrote about it) its absolutely essential for a multicultural nation such as Indonesia to have an police force with understanding of local traditions, and the other thing is the salary, wich is higher today so they dont have to stop the motorbikes for the extra sim and stnk money.
Off course Indonesia is corrupt, Jimbo, probably in the top 20 of the world (though i dont understand how they can compare, i dont even know the definition of corruption.)but i think they are trying hard to change that, but this is not made in one day.
I dont think Roy is right about Bali being better than the rest of Indonesia, corruption is the same in bali or in Batu (jawa timur) where i live. I live a normal life with a normal house(without swimmingpool;-) and 3 kids, my kids in the local school, not a private one, and i have no problem with corruption im my everyday life. Maybe thats because i lived here for a long time and are accepted in the comunity......
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Jimbo on Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:04 am

So, back to my original question. Would I enjoy such a photo? You bet I would and I have little doubt that in time, it will be taken.


Nothing is impossible.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby SG on Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:20 am

as an aside, I guess not much changes here: Tommy gets a pass and a payout
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Roy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:48 pm

Disgusting, isn’t it? Moot question. But for me, it’s Bali that counts, and TS in neither Balinese, nor respected here in Bali.

SG, if you live in Sanur, you should already know that. If not, just ask some Balinese who live around you what they think.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby SG on Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:59 pm

Roy wrote:Disgusting, isn’t it? Moot question. But for me, it’s Bali that counts, and TS in neither Balinese, nor respected here in Bali.

SG, if you live in Sanur, you should already know that. If not, just ask some Balinese who live around you what they think.


Roy, I'm under no illusions as to what Balinese think of Tommy, and its hard not to agree, hence my "as an aside" opener. It wasn't meant as a slight against the island, but it IS a shocking insult by those that should know better against those that they are paid to represent and defend. The old ways are still not that far in the past.
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Re: Indonesian Justice

Postby Roy on Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:44 am

SG, we are on the same page here.
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