Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

TinTin, I did do the math. What I meant was that even at $1500 a month it was cheap, and how greedy she is to pay so much less than that. I have worked as a domestic in the States and know only too well that you work way more than an 8 hour day.

We also have illegal immigrant who work virtually for their food, if you go to the areas where they grow vegetables (like Carnarvon) there are heaps of illegals. Even at my husband's mosque we know some illegals - who work for whatever they can get.

My point about the gardeners was not about the $17 per hour (which I agree is very reasonable) it was about the 50 hour week. Not fair or reasonable.

Balilife - I'm sure it is a long time since you had to survive (if ever) on minimum wage. You know how expensive it is to live in Perth - you can't rent a 2 bedroom flat for less than $250 per week and a small 3 bed home way out in the sticks is over $300 per week. Much more than that for anything nicer or closer. So you tell me how you live on roughly $400-$450 in the hand?

Minimum wage in Indonesia - I think it would be a long time before the government regulated anything like that. I'm no unionist, but didn't the unions in the Western countries get us minimum wage? And that is never likely to be repeated in Asia. I think it has to come from the integrity of employers. Nice dream.

I think the punishment dealt out to the Saudi nationals in this story is too light. They should be totally shamed, both in the USA AND in Saudi.

FreoGirl,

My "you do the math" (for the REAL salary) was only a rhetorical statement. I know you read the whole article, and you did the maths for the theoretical salary, but you were aware of the puny real salary.

As for the punishment which you thought was too lenient, what was in the article was also a "theoretical" punishment : Hana F. Al Jader of Winchester was sentenced only to two years of probation, the first six months of which had to be served in home confinement, after which she'd be deported to Saudi Arabia. The only uncertain point at the time was should the time when she was on bail, and confined to her home, be considered?

Adam

At the very most it will $200 per month and maybe even less. Some are treated very well, some are treated badly and some are just treated like its a job. Hours are very long as they tend to live in but there are many who go so I suppose it must be worth it.

Jimbo, thanks for that.

Thats so sad, my young niece and nephew don't have their mum for 2 years so that she can not even make 2 million Rp. a month

Still, the only other option for her and her husband and most people in rural Genteng is 17k Rp. a day for rice field work, so I can see why they do it. It certainly makes the time I'm away from my fiance feel insignificant thats for sure.

The UNICEF photo of the year 2007 by US photographer Stephanie Sinclair !



This is the wedding photo of a couple in Afghanistan the guy is 40 years old, the bride is 11 years old!
She has no idea what’s going on, sold by her family to a completely stranger

Actually, in this case, the groom is a youngsters. I've heard of much older men marrying young teenager girls. Personally, I've never seen it, because as soon as an Afghan girl menstruates, she starts a life-long reclusion, first in her family compound and then in her husband's. Of course, this type of marriages, old men and young girls, also exist in many parts of the world, in Asia and Africa.

Disregarding the lecherous aspect of this type of marriage for a moment, it is based on the survival of the species. In Afghanistan, for example, the maternal mortality rate is one of the highest in the world: 16% of Afghan women die while pregnant or during delivery. The infant mortality rate is the second highest in the world. The probabilty that a child will not see his/her first birthday is 17%. When Afghanistan was my stomping ground in the 1970s, one out a five kids did not make it to the age of five, and things have not changed today. The life expectancy at birth is 47 years!, the GNI per capita is about US$250. These problems are compounded by patriarchal Afghan traditions, as the country is for the most part rural and remote. Therefore, this type of marriage somehow guaranties the survival of the tribe: this is nature at work.

By no means am I defending these traditions, which, like I said before, exists in many other places, but one should understand the contexts. Things can be made to change, even in Afghanistan, not over night, but step by step. IMO, this will happen when people stop praying to their gods instead of REALLY being concerned about their fellow human beings and acting on it (Sorry for this last digression, but isn't it the truth?).

Nevertheless, Afghanistan is the most extraordinary place I have ever visited.

Tintin, marriage to an 11 year old girl is less about survival of the tribe and more about the belief that the younger the bride the more guarantee that she is a virgin.

This is about men wanting a virgin bride, not the tribe surviving.

The medical issues that these girls suffer, due to too early sexual activity and pregnancy before their child's bodies are fully developed, are well documented. The mortality rate for both the child bride and the baby is very high, for the simple fact that they are not ready yet to bear children. How can that be survival of the tribe?

There is a good reason that most societies ban this sort of thing. Society's laws are generally based on what works - so we don't mate with our children or close relatives, we don't have sex with children, and a whole raft of other 'natural' laws.

There simply is no context in which I can put this girl's plight that makes it ok.

- It is a fact that physiologically, Afghan girls mature faster than western girls, and an 11-years old Afghan is more apt at carrying a babe successfully than a 11-years old Australian girl.

- Marrying a young girl for her virginity is not the cause of these child-brides. In Afghan society, once a girl has menstruate, she is no longer allowed to be alone in the presence of a man. She will be, until the day she dies, practically always surrounded by the females of her household only. So, a 22-years old unmarried Afghan woman will be as virgin as a 11-years old girl. But of course "things" happen, with an uncle or a cousin. In that case, if found out, she will be killed, knifed, by one of her brothers, with the full approval of her family. If not found out, she most likely will be found out when she gets married. The husband will send her back to her father, and there will be a big quarrel regarding the dowry. Most of the time it will be returned, and then I pitty the poor"sinful" girl.

- Afghan men marry late, and some never marry at all, because they must buy their wives. A wife is relatively expensive for the average Afghan, and it will take years before he can accumulate enough dow for the dowy.

- Of course, Society's laws are generally based on what works, and the Afghan's societal laws are ancestral, so I guess they have worked until now, because Afghanistan is still here. You may not agree with most of them (I don't either on that particular one), but that's the way it is.

- I am very familiar with the afghan society through studies and my involvement with Afghan people. I was one of the founding members of the Free Afghanistan Alliance, Cambridge, Mass, in 1980, and I am still somewhat active in Afghan causes. I have never read any break down regarding the maternal deaths of child-bride and their childrens, but maybe you have some?

- In any case, I agree with you totally that the plight of the average Afghan girl and woman is horrific.

Tintin, you do have a lot more real knowledge of Afghan society than I. However my point about the physical effects of carrying children too young is not based on an Australian girl, I was referring to the documented facts published by WHO and UNICEF on the subject (mostly studies in India - but I think we can agree that Indian and Afghan girls are similar).

I believe (having listened to some of the dogma) that the reason girls are locked away is so that they are untouched. The younger they are, the better chances that there will have been no chance of 'things' happening.

Women are generally locked away in Afghanistan and some other muslim countries because the men fear that given freedom the woman may sleep with someone else (Allah forbid!). This has become part of the social fabric. Even my own husband is extremely uncomfortable with me being alone with another man other than my family. It is quite a challenge for him to give me the freedom I have, and my husband is a fairly moderate muslim.

I do have some correspondence that discussed figures of deaths from childbirth, along with other physical issues that result from a child giving birth, mostly India, but will try to put my hands on them and pm you.

IMO, this will happen when people stop praying to their gods instead of REALLY being concerned about their fellow human beings and acting on it (Sorry for this last digression, but isn't it the truth?).

Oh right, it's because they're Muslims. If they weren't religious all of their problems would vanish.

FreoGirl,

Afghanistan is, in spite of its many different tribes, has rather homogeneous society, cemented by its very orthodox type of Islam (with the exception of the Kuchis, who are also conservative Moslems, but their social organization is quite different from the rest). India has so many diverse ethnicities, the girl-bride must have other reasons. Anyway, I can appreciate the physical issues that result from a child giving birth, but one never knows enough. So, if you get a hold of the data, please pass them on in a pm. Thank you in advance.

TIN ..shed some light for me . Why do the afgans grow and produce the lion share of the worlds heroin , I would think that flies in the face of the muslimism ? And the whole topic of the child bride is gross ...

I am going to get blasted again for answering your question which has nothing to do with Bali, but I guess it has something to do with Islam, i.e. Indonesia.

Briefly stated, the reason is poverty. Afghanistan is practically all rural, and very poor. There is a great world demand for the "stuff," so Opium has become most important way for the majority of Afghan farmers to survive. The industry, the banking system of Afghanistan are totally collapsed, but it really does not seem to matter to the average Afghan farmer who gets his money from the money changer through informal loans in exchange for some of his crops. This is the only way he and his family can survive. But the best crop which brings the most money is opium poppies. I don't know much about Islam, but I don't think that there is a prohibition against growing poppies. There may be one about using the derived products though. However, Islam is as diverse in its practices as any other religion. For example alcohol seems to have been used at the Great Mogols' courts in great quantities (it was the reason for Babur's downfall who used too much of it), and the wines of Shiraz had always prevailed over the law of the Prophet.

I just dont get it , they cant drink yet they grow poppies ? thx

JAMIE wrote:I just dont get it , they cant drink yet they grow poppies ? thx

People don't drink yet they smoke ciggies (and in Indonesia the government allows advertising that implies it makes you strong, healthy and good looking)...

Like Tin Tin says..money drives a lot of things.