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Roy · by **Roy** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:13 pm

Hey, Markit is on-line now! Do you think more American history lessons from him are coming? :lol:

Roy · by **Roy** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:15 pm

Bring it on Markit, we can almost make this a "chat" experience.

Roy · by **Roy** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:16 pm

Opps, he just signed off. Oh well, no surprise there, at least not from me. Cheers all!

Markit · by **Markit** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:19 pm

Roy, finally a gem of wisdom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8F ... re=related

Had forgotten this scene.

Thanks, but don't get carried away the rest is still BS. :lol:

Roy · by **Roy** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:28 pm

The only BS I've been reading around here Markit all has your name on it. That is what you like to call fact. And so it is.

Have a great time in Bali, but as I said before, PLEASE do not forget your return tickets.

If you want the British Consul's name and phone number, just send me a PM and I'll gladly supply it for you. Lord knows, the chances are good that you may well need that name and phone number!

So, any more American history lessons, or have you given up on that woeful endeavor? :lol:

Sanurian · by **Sanurian** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:08 pm

Hi, Roy

I think many people already suspect that markit is not the full quid (or Rupiah).

Just "forgive" and ignore his taunts - Trying to verbal him, so to speak, on this forum, will go nowhere. Believe me. A waste of time and energy and for what?

Then there's Jimbo coming into the fray with:

...I did notice the same advice for Markit not to discuss his ideas with others in Bali. Seems like a very parochial viewpoint to me. Whats the matter guys not like you to suppress honest debate and different points of view?.......or is it...

With all due respect, Jimbo. Markit can "discuss" whatever he wants in Bali. That's up to him. Some of us think it may not be good for his health. Again...that'll be his problem, if there is one. Let's wait and see.

I can't speak for others, but I have never tried "to suppress honest debate and different points of view".

This immediate thread is supposed to be about Wilder's "Fitna" opus. Have you seen it, (in Kazakhstan)? If so, how did it grab you?

And as for "parochial viewpoints"...I've yet to visit Kazakhstan. (Sorry if I can't spell it properly...I'm Australian...that's my excuse.) What's yours?

Believe it or not, I did consider taking you up on your offer of free drinks at Denpasar Airport on your recent transit stop. The prospect of drinking free beers from midnight to dawn and talking assorted bullshit with a stranger didn't appeal to me (even though I'm Australian). Maybe I should have.

Anybody here know what "Fitna" means? Odd that nobody's mentioned it before, (or did I miss something...again?). Watch out for the armchair professors who will surely enlighten us all, soon.

:roll:

Bert Vierstra · by **Bert Vierstra** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:28 pm

Fitna (فتنة) is an Arabic word, generally regarded as very difficult to translate but at the same time is considered to be an all-encompassing word referring to schism, secession, upheaval and anarchy at once. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_%28word%29

froggy · by **froggy** on Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:41 pm

I can see this isssue getting alot bigger, Immigration (or allowing of) was a big mistake,, I just cant figure out why they are allowed to freely migrate there with such ease, not every country is or should be a melting pot.... I would love to see them migrate to a non democratic society and try this B.S,,,,, like China or something..... Just my opinion

Pa_Yan · by **Pa_Yan** on Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:22 am

Harry wrote

Part of the problem with the muslems in The Netherlands has been caused by the (left minded)intellectuals who dominate the media in the Netherlands. Their Politically Correct ideas have been adopted by Dutch politicians (from progressive to liberal) and implemented into current dutch politics.

Please elaborate. What / which problem was caused by left minded intellectuals? Which media do they dominate? The intellectual is the problem, or being left minded? Is being political correct a bad thing?

Minorities have therefore been put on pedestals and been pampered and spoiled by all the Dutch governments that have been elected the last 25/30 years. They were seen as victims that needed help and they could get anything done and had no obligations but only rights. They were encouraged to keep their own (good) culture/rules/mindset and encouraged not to adopt the (evil) Dutch culture and language. ONly the last few years the government has started to encourage them to adopt some of the Dutch culture.

Where in Dutch law can I find this statement that "they "( only Muslims? ) don't have to keep the law? Was there a bonus for wearing a bourqa?

Many are jobless and in crime, don't speak passable Dutch, don't respect the weak Dutch who always position themselves and their culture inferior to the Muslim culture, feel that they are in power etc.

Mmmm, and to flee from this, you consider moving to Indonesia. You're in for a surprise than....

harry_ej · by **harry_ej** on Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:08 am

Pa_Yan wrote:Please elaborate. What / which problem was caused by left minded intellectuals? Which media do they dominate? The intellectual is the problem, or being left minded? Is being political correct a bad thing?

I can sense you are not Dutch and you have probably never been to the Netherlands am i right?

In Holland most newspapers with the exception of the Telegraaf and most weeklys except HP de Tijd and to a lesser extend weekly Elsevier are a platform for left focussed intellectuals and journalists to voice their PC opinions. The public media on television are also dominated by the left PC movement (Kro , NCRV, AVRO,VARA) and the governemt channel NOS is also used to advertise the left PC religion as the only and true religion. Funny thing is that the NOS as the government channel is paid out of the taxes from the total Dutch population and because of that one should expect it to represent the voice and opinion of the total population, but alas that is not the case.

I don't have anything against left and the pc movement, as a matter of fact i'm also left. My problem is that dutch governemt has not treated the migrants the way they should have been treated. They have been and still are looked at as victims and have been treated like victims becaue they were not western and not christian. They should from the beginning have been treated as equals and ' inburgering' should from the beginning have been a priority. Then they would have integrated and more would probably have gotten jobs etc, now as a result of the victimizing many Dutch look at them as second class citizens which in turn has made the immigrants feel not accepted/ not respected and is causing all the tension and conflicts we see in Holland today.

Minorities have therefore been put on pedestals and been pampered and spoiled by all the Dutch governments that have been elected the last 25/30 years. They were seen as victims that needed help and they could get anything done and had no obligations but only rights. They were encouraged to keep their own (good) culture/rules/mindset and encouraged not to adopt the (evil) Dutch culture and language. ONly the last few years the government has started to encourage them to adopt some of the Dutch culture.

Where in Dutch law can I find this statement that "they "( only Muslims? ) don't have to keep the law? Was there a bonus for wearing a bourqa?

I'm not saying they don't have to abide by the laws, i'm just saying that they were encouraged to stick to their own culture hence all the muslim organizations and special schools for muslims, until a couple of years ago muslim parents were always advised by dutch consultants to put their kids in muslim schools.

Many are jobless and in crime, don't speak passable Dutch, don't respect the weak Dutch who always position themselves and their culture inferior to the Muslim culture, feel that they are in power etc.

Mmmm, and to flee from this, you consider moving to Indonesia. You're in for a surprise than....[/quote]

I lived in Jakarta for 4 years and on Bali for over a year and traveled about 8 times to Indonesia, i never had any problems with Indonesian muslims and find them very liberal and open and friendly towards other (christian) people, there are ofcourse a lot of problems here too and it is not getting better but on average i find the Indonesian muslims a lot more relaxed and easier going than the average muslim living in The Netherlands who is from North Africa-Iraq-Afghanistan-Turkey etc.

iainsomers · by **iainsomers** on Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:35 pm

Some muslim communities do cause a problem in the netherlands. Espec the marocs have been a big problem for some time. We didnt learn their very low educated parents to speak dutch, we didnt learn how to properly live in a western country. Due to this they dont know how to raise their children. This causes big problems among the 12-25 year old marocs.
Because the marocs are muslim, alot of dutchmen say that that is the problem. But the problem is not so much the islam, but the absence of education and the old fashioned way of believing their religion.

Although a lot of my fellow dutchmen disagree, I see some things getting better the last 1 or 2 years.

About the movie: Geert Wilders is not a neo-nazi. He just is a little too "wild" is his right winged ideology. I saw the movie and I think it was not good at all. Just a serie of terrorist actions and other cruel acts by moslims. We all know those things and repeating them doesnt help anybody.

Moving to Bali is also my wish, but not because I think Bali is paradise or that all the bad things wich are in the netherlands wont be in Indonesia.

Jimbo · by **Jimbo** on Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:06 am

Believe it or not, I did consider taking you up on your offer of free drinks at Denpasar Airport on your recent transit stop. The prospect of drinking free beers from midnight to dawn and talking assorted bullshit with a stranger didn't appeal to me (even though I'm Australian). Maybe I should have.

The only way not to be a stranger is to meet so I extend the same offer for Sunday between 19.15 and midnight. I am arriving from Makassar and departing to Seoul.

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