Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

[Bert Vierstra]

The last few days people have been falling over eachother, leaving the forum, sending emails and PM's about the ongoings on the forum.

Now where has this all been about?

Simply said, IMHO, its about the attitude people have towards their hosts, and how other people feel about this attitude.

So, what makes a good expat, and what makes a bad expat?

And what makes people want to work and live in a third world country? Idealism, greed, opportunity, (unconditional) love?

Does the status of Indonesia, a "poor third world country" immediately means that besides paying taxes (do you?) you also need to do something extra?

Is the ideal expat local politically correct, interested in learning daily about their new hosts culture and religion, paying his or her taxes, supporting charities with at least 10% of his or her salary, reaching out to help otherwise, buying and eating locally, speaking the language, using a local bank account?

Or is the ideal expat criticizing his hosts openly using his or her own criteria only, taking his or her own culture and religion with them, avoiding tax, not caring about his or her (social) environment, importing all, and talking to his or her fellow country people only, sending his or her money immediately abroad?

[lumumba]

Well Bert you’ve started a really good one.

As for making a good Expat:
Have a basic understanding of customs, be polite and pay attention.
It can also shock and dismay if we're not informed and prepared for the differences. It's vital to know acceptable cultural practices when in a foreign country.
You must appreciate the differences
Learn about local customs, traditions and standards of etiquette.
Take cues from the locals, especially when uncertain how to behave. Observe the behaviour of the general public and follow suit. (Follow suit maybe not all the times)
Respect local customs
Be aware of local laws and expect no special treatment for ignorance of them.
Remember that a smile is understood around the world. Be polite and patient and appreciate the local customs, traditions and ways of doing things.
The Expatriate behaves is largely determined (but not all the times) by the origin of each Expatriate and depending on a number of factors
And again as for making a good Expat, keep in mind that no matter how long you're there, you will always be viewed by the natives as American/Italian/English or even better BULE, and as such you will represent your own country.
I will never understand the Expatriate who moved to another country only to hook up with other Expats to run drinking games every day or even weekend. Try to be a good neighbour, and make sure you understand the norms of your area.
Get to know the local politics and really understand the context of the region will make a big difference in your experience and how others think of you, this will avoid to be just another clueless BULE.

Make comments about Indonesia and Indonesian orang I believe it is expectable, IN MODERATION.
Much more to add but I leave it to others.

For what concern the bad Expat I suppose it will be the opposite of what I just said
CHEERS and Regards

[milan]

Expats should be free to do, think, participate, express, feel anyway they wish in their adopted country as I personally wouldn't like to be limited either in my ability and freedom to do the same. Just by using diplomacy or non provocative language and respect would be sufficient in conveying their desire to communicate or contribute. By opting on staying uninvolved in the country they live in also is their pregogative to choose. After all, freedom is what we all enjoy. Certainly in any of our experiences living in different customs and cultures we'd encounter things that would delight, shock, discover, learn if willing and teach if asked that forms our opinion on that country. But if one were to ask: "would you give up the experiences you went through from this country you live in?" My answer would be NO. I am what I am for all the experiences I've been given and blessed to have.
Therefore, by using common-sense and a certain degree of understanding of the host country I believe one can be a very good expat and even can derive all the goodness what that country has to offer. I always try to see, take, enjoy the positivities of this country I live in and I'm proud to say that I've lived in Italy on and off for 23 years today. I even feel lucky to have absorbed, yes - the passion, the fieryness?, the boldness, the frankness that even my husband who is Italian at times cringes... But then he'd put me to a good use as to save his you-know-what... Me, this used to be this docile Asian girl...
I'm just kidding...Oh, in case one day we have the opportunity to have a gathering among us the forumites in Indonesia, please give me 3 weeks after arrival to allow my metamorphosis to take place in order to adapt back to my usual sweet-nature person once again. Thank you.

[SG]

Hell, Bert, just be true to yourself and what you believe in. Nothing else matters. Trying to fit oneself into a box just to keep others happy is just silly, as is saying that someone from somewhere else, no matter where they reside does not have the right to comment on matters or affairs they care to as long as it doesn't offend.

The idea that we are 'guests' and others are 'hosts' and therefore we should mind our mouths is nonsense. It always has been but the digital word, and especially Web 2.0 has broken down these barriers forever.

I belong to a bunch of forums around the world, current affairs, political and musical, and the idea that national barriers prevent one from commenting would be seen as vaguely ludicrous in all but the fringes of this one.

One of the other forums I was on (as a lurker) for a while was an Australian one and a couple of Indonesians were regulars, living in Australia and commenting. There was never any thought to saying 'you are guests, shut up'. I belong to an NZ current affairs forum and there are a bunch of Malaysian students and a Serbian guy who are very opinionated about NZ..no one ever suggested they bite their tongues.

[Roy]

Bert writes:

“Does the status of Indonesia, a "poor third world country" immediately means that besides paying taxes (do you?) you also need to do something extra?”

Reading Lumumba’s excellent reply, I cannot think of anything to add, except, well done!

[Roy]

Ma'af, I messed up my last post. After quoting you Bert, I meant to reply to that quote with:

I’m sorry to correct you Bert, but Indonesia is NOT a third world country, rather it is classified by the United Nations as an emerging nation, and has been so classified for quite some time. And yes, I pay taxes.

[lumumba]

Hi Roy,

Thank you very much for your comment, most appreciated.

Cheers

[milesb]

An interesting topic.

When I was in Ubud last year, a few expats were in a cafe I was in (admittedly Casa Luna) making snide remarks about some of the locals. They made no attempt to say anything in Bahasa, and came across as great ambassadors for loud and rude people.

That, on top of some of the threads I have read across other forums (I've been lurking on and off here for a couple of years ) makes me wonder why some people move overseas.

Me? When I'm in Bali, I avoid meeting other Australians at all costs. If I wanted to do that, I'd stay home. Same goes for eating US brand junk food, etc, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Following the host nations customs, and learning basic language is just basic politeness IMHO.

Miles.

[Jimbo]

Lumumba (or is it Patrice )

I think your statement was excellent.

[mimpimanis]

Lumumba (or is it Patrice )

Or is it Renato

[Sumatra]

Hey Roy,
Third world or, emerging nation, it's all a matter of semantics for those of us who've traveled deep into the interior sections of some of the islands, where the people still exist in a third world environment.
Milesb,
Excellent points, during my travels throughout Indonesia I very rarely cross paths with other bule, preferring the company of the locals and their cuisine. For me, this is what it's all about.
There are others though, mostly drunken, stupid tourists and fringe business owners ("fringe" meaning their profitability margin sucks in their country of origin), the latter come here to open up shop and take financial advantage of a plentiful and cheap pool of labor, that they don't have to pay a benefits package to.
It's these types of expats, who usually aren't interested in assimilation and aren't shy about expressing their low opinions of the local inhabitants. No matter how much some of them pay lip service to the contrary for public appearance purposes, their primary goal is to increase their profit margin.

The Don

[Roy]

When I was in Ubud last year, a few expats were in a cafe I was in (admittedly Casa Luna) making snide remarks about some of the locals. They made no attempt to say anything in Bahasa, and came across as great ambassadors for loud and rude people.

How do you know they were expats? The only expats I know that go there are the ones attending AA meetings on the ground level.

Hey Roy,
Third world or, emerging nation, it's all a matter of semantics for those of us who've traveled deep into the interior sections of some of the islands, where the people still exist in a third world environment.

I beg to differ...and so does the United Nations. And by the way, I've been in plenty of places in the deep south of the US where one could easily believe they were in the third world.

[milan]

Or those who are just a run-of-the-mill kind of people back in their country or even live marginally there, once in Indonesia have suddenly “found America” (Italian expression of finding paradise). With inflated egos they suddenly behave as though they’re kings and become so demanding on perfection by comparing what and how other countries are. Indonesia is Indonesia and we do things our way regardless. After having seen how Alitalia is in Italy, I sort of admire how Garuda still exists having passed the rather turmoil phase we had in 1998.

On a lighter note: In Jakarta many men become the playboys (also Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand) they’d never imagine to be capable of had they stayed in their country…sorry… or those who were married even go so far as to divorce their wives who they came with…

[Roy]

By the way, Don, on your next journey deep into the interior sections of some of the islands, if you need one of these to wear…you know, so you fit in with the locals, just give me a holler as I have quite a few on hand…

[Sumatra]

Hey Roy!

I know what those are!!!!! Anybody else want to venture a guess?
Perhaps the one on the right, perhaps not, there's nothing of a familiar dimension in the picture for comparison purposes, just to make sure it's the right size and all, so I'll have to decline your offer for now.

Where did you come by those trophies?

I wholeheartedly agree with your assertions about the deep southern US. Unfortunately, we even have third world conditions cropping up in some of our major cities. It's not just a rural thing anymore.

Don

[BaliLife]

i'll have a guess sumatra.. you'd probably tie one of those around your forehead? just joking.. that was mean..

this post is a real ramble on (i came back and inserted this line) - it might very well put you to sleep..

ah well i had a very enjoyable afternoon. after picking my son up from school and dropping him off home, i drove out to pick up my buddy in the west (i love the west of surabaya - unfortunately i live in the east ).. his partner (as in business partner) accompanied us as he does every time we go for lunch - which is at least 3 times a week.. we then went to my architects office - who's also a good friend to pick him up for lunch - they're all in the west, spread among the heavenly suburbs of bukit darmo and citraland.. went and had h&w for lunch - great nasi goreng jowo.. played some billiards.. then went back to my architect's office where i spent the next 4 hours pining over the most minute details concerning railings.. finally after 3 cups of coffee, a kraeteng daeng, a diet coke and 5 gudang garam, we decided it was time to grab some chow.. so we drive around the corner to a happening little strip named g-walk.. bing, my architect is also a lecturer in design at 2 of the universities in surabaya and his office is like a second home to half of his students.. anyhow, his students from ciputra were all engaged in a special unit activity.. they've all set up stands, created menu's and mini operating kitchens and are in a competition to see who can raise the most money - part of an entrepreneurial unit - anyhow, there must have been at least 8 different stalls an of course all the students were trying to sell their product - with little reluctance to approach you at the table.. anyhow, seeing as i'm one of those arseholes that's referenced above who isn't big on indonesian food (funny only 1 of the stalls was actually selling true indo food (bakso - yuuuuuk! rather eat a pair of shoes)), i spent the night enjoying great western junk food prepped by a bunch of students.. weather was beautiful, (so were the girls - uni girls ).. a perfect evening.. eat, rokok, eat, rokok... eat some more.. anyhow, got a lot done funny enough..

this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.. and i don't know what it means to be a "good expat" - i think that's a very subjective term.. i don't think we owe anything to anyone for being here, but that doesn't mean we can't try and give something..

i realized another thing tonight.. you have to realize, surabaya is still very much segregated - i've talked about this before.. it's most obviously an economic segregation but there are likely other factors that play into it - religion and culture for example.. here the wealth shared among non-chinese indonesians is minuscule in comparison to the vast amounts of wealth held by chinese indonesians.. it really means there end up being 2 visibly different parts of indonesia within the same city - which is a tragedy in every way..

here's a crappy house in graha famili in surabaya:


and here's a mansion in a kampung in surabaya:


so it's not about me choosing where i go and whether i prefer one area or another.. i really enjoy walking through the kampung nearby our place - you actually get to meet and talk to people.. after a few trips there, the entire 'block' knows you by name.. that is a pretty unique feeling.. the estates however are of course more reminiscent of our own countries (except for the huge fences) - there are massive houses and medium sized houses.. parks are manicured and restaurants look like restaurants and not like parking garages.. these areas in surabaya are at least, almost entirely chinese indonesian areas.. i'm told jakarta's estates, while still having a large majority of chinese indonesians, do definitely have higher ratios of native indonesians and this is supposedly attributed to 'government officials' also living in these areas.. anyhow - one positive side effect of corruption it seems is that jakarta's luxury estates are more diversified so what does this have to do with being a good expat? well, i look at the situation in surabaya and what's clear is, as well as there being some very unfair economic disparities, there is also reflected a very natural human tendency for people to group together with people they relate to on several fronts - culture, race, demographics, etc. so therefore to immediately condone those expats who group together with other expats - that's a little unfair, because even our 'hosts' do this..

i'm fortunately or unfortunately (or neither) in a city where there are very few visible expats - meaning, you just don't see them ANYWHERE.. sure occasionally (like maybe four times a week) i'll see another westerner, but it's not like i go up to him/her and shake their hand.. so if i don't associate with indonesians, i'll be left accompanying myself 24/7..

oh yes, and i obviously believe it's completely fair game to scrutinize - and criticize when such is deserved..

oh, and a final funny observation of mine.. every day i spend at least half an hour or so at the warung with a group of 5, sometimes 6, sometimes more, just chatting away, and every couple of days or so i wonder into the kampung adjacent to our block and chat with the folks i know over there.. what is talked about? politics, religion and day to day stuff.. they're dying to talk about politics and religion.. now, the rest of my day is spent with my family and friends.. they're all chinese indonesian - mainly "christians" and "catholics" (rediculous indonesian terminology), some buddhists.. and in general, i can say, none of them, friends included have any inclination to discuss politics or religion.. in fact they're largely politically unaware and the only time they want to talk about religion is when a tante asks you why you don't go to church or before that, whether or not you go to church.. i have no idea why this pattern appears so (of course it just might be due to a relatively small sampling base) - but to me, it very much seems that most indonesians are very willing to talk about "taboo" subjects like religion and politics - to them they don't seem to be taboo at all..

in 5 hours i need to be up and ready to accompany my kids on a school field trip - taman safari, so i better hit the sack..

ct