Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

[hinakos]

Much like being a travelling surfer surfing foreign breaks as he wanders along his journey, one could say a person living outside of his country has certain "local ethic" he/she should follow.

Unfortunately these days the surf is getting more and more crowded, and even a lot of the local surfers dont play with any ethic, so as a "wandering surfer" or expat living in another country, its getting harder and harder to always stand on the right side of the line, or be a good or bad expat.

Paying taxes or not, in my opinion has little to do with whether you are "good" or not. By living in a country where you're not entitled to any social benefits and spending your income there, youre completely the opposite to a "burden on the system". Youre actually stimulating the economy (having said that taxes are deducted from my wages in each country i work in before i even see my pay). If you choose not too, then be prepared for the results further down the road.

Someone said in a reply to Berts post that some shrewd business operators set up here to take advantage of the cheap labour pool.......as if that was a bad thing. This happens the world over in every kind of business. The Balinese are brilliant at this, setting up businesses employing local people, paying local wages, and charging western prices for their services. All power to them for doing this, its capitalism, why shouldnt any person regardless of skin colour be able to do this?

It all comes down to respecting other peoples personal boundaries and cultures.......we live in a shrinking world where more and more people spend their whole working lives moving from country to country. It can get a bit hard to immerse yourself in every aspect of every local culture if your this kind of expat. If on the other hand your the kind of expat that has permanently relocated from one country to the other and thats your final stop.....then a bit more can be expected.

I know westerners that have lived and worked in Bali for 20 years and dont speak a word of Bahasa (other than "hello cantik" or "makan"!). While i find this a little hard to understand and consider it lazy more than anything else, theres a flipside.
50 years ago if you moved to a particular region of Bali youd have been expected to learn that particular dialect of that particular region.......now we say that if we move to Bali we should attempt to learn Bahasa Indonesian. I think that you'll always get a hardline element of expats that push for deeper immersion in local customs......how would they answer this?

Everyone is on thier own personal journey, out to provide for and protect his/her loved ones (in whatever country they happen to be in), and the competition seems to be getting fiercer and fiercer and populations boom.

I think a good expat is someone who can sucessfully pull this off (protecting and providing for his loved ones) regardless of what country they live in, without having contributed to the destruction of anothers.

[Roy]

Well, your post certainly touches on a very long standing issue that has its historical roots in Indonesia as far back as the 9th century AD…that being, Chinese in Indonesia. The Chinese first arrived here during the T’ang Dynasty, and they are historically responsible for most commerce and trade here as they are throughout all of SE Asia. That is not opinion, rather it is historical fact. During the Majapahit Dynasty, the mid 14th century, Chinese coinage was made the official currency. Ever notice the string tied rings of Chinese coins that are an essential part of the offerings at all Balinese ceremonies? Buddhism in Indonesia was brought here by the Chinese even before Hinduism came from India…and both arrived long before Islam. The largest Buddhist temple in the world is right here in Java.

The angst, built up over long periods of frustration, largely, but not solely due to the economic disparities, most recently came to an ugly head during the financial crisis of the late 1990’s. If one takes a good look at Indonesian history, this sort of thing has happened before, and with relative frequency, and for hundreds of years.

In Bali, those disparities that you point out as a reality in Surabaya are harder to find. One exception is Singaraja, and there it is more from the architectural record in the main center of town…e.g., the shops on the ground level, the residences above, and classic Chinese (mixed with Dutch) architecture.

How this all bodes for the future is a great unknown, and if the indiscriminant violence that occurred in Jakarta towards the Chinese as recently as 11 or 12 years ago is a reliable barometer, I would think a re-occurrence is very likely again.

BaliLife, this topical discussion could form the framework of an interesting string…but it will be controversial, as reason and emotions will assuredly collide. Cheers!

[Roy]

Sorry, but just for clarification, my post is referring to BaliLife’s most recent post.

[Roy]

Hinakos, for what it’s worth, I enjoyed reading your post.

For some of us, our greatest worry is that Balinese culture will be at the least diluted, if not eventually absorbed by outside influence, be that economic, social, or cultural. This has already happened endlessly all over the world to innumerable cultures.
Some would rightfully say that Balinese culture has already been at least diluted…and it has.

Married to a Balinese, and with three sons, my own personal…call it selfish if you want…interest is to see that the culture of Bali remains intact. We are raising our boys here, and as Balinese, because we both believe this is the best possible environment for them to grow without fear, racial pressure, and a monetary value system that as I write, is going down the toilet.

So, yes, I strongly feel that expats have a HUGE responsibility in Bali, and I also believe that those who don’t understand this are short lived here. As I have been writing for many years…expats in Bali ebb and flow like the tide. I have seen as many eventually leave as I have seen come here.

For many, Bali is just another exotic island on the globe. Well, she is hardly that, and as odd ball as it may sound, she does have a life of her own, and it’s a life that has sustained the Balinese for many, many centuries. I have little doubt, in spite of the continuous and growing outside pressure, that this cycle will continue.

[BaliLife]

How this all bodes for the future is a great unknown, and if the indiscriminant violence that occurred in Jakarta towards the Chinese as recently as 11 or 12 years ago is a reliable barometer, I would think a re-occurrence is very likely again.

BaliLife, this topical discussion could form the framework of an interesting string…but it will be controversial, as reason and emotions will assuredly collide.

hi roy.. i think much has been done politically to reduce much of the division (and in some cases hatred) that was fanned on during the financial crisis.. gus dur, megawati and sby have all led 'reconciliation' efforts which focus mainly on the idea of a diverse indonesia.. you're right in that with such a long history of such occurrences, it would be foolish to suggest that such couldn't happen again.. suharto was the most rotten of them in this respect.. he slapped chinese indonesians publicly as it suited his political agenda while collecting hundreds of millions from them in dirty money.. a very clever guy, and funny enough, many (not all) chinese indonesians still reminisce about the good old days of suharto - where money was everywhere..

i wasn't necessarily looking to start a discussion on chinese indonesians in particular with that last post - though it would make for a very interesting discussion.. i was more looking at the natural tendency of people to group together with "their own" (as much as i hate that term).. if you go to the port area of surabaya, you go through an area where nearly every person is from madura (i forget the suburbs name) - they speak their own dialect and as do the chinese indonesians, they too group together.. or if you go to the arab district in surabaya, you'll see distinct arab communities and a small area where the majority of residents are of arab descent..

i agree about it being far less segregated in bali.. many have suggested to me that such is because of the fact that balinese are predominantly hindu and not muslims.. i have no opinion on whether this is or is not the prevailing cause.. some suggest that christian / buddhist chinese indonesians integrate easier with hindus than with muslims.. i know that chinese indonesian's view in general of balinese is far more favourable than that of javanese and people of other muslim provinces for example.. it's unfortunate and i think based largely on other factors that are easier to justify by blanketing it in a religious cloak.. e.g. i think a part of the reason that bali is less segregated is that bali has never really been a major economic hub of modern indonesia when compared to java and sumatra.. so the economic disparities there are generally less of a way of life than they are in surabaya, jakarta and medan for example..

anyhow.. i'm going to feed my face..

ct

[matsaleh]

anyhow.. i'm going to feed my face..

Such an eloquent turn of phrase, Balilife

[mimpimanis]

i agree about it being far less segregated in bali.. many have suggested to me that such is because of the fact that balinese are predominantly hindu and not muslims..

Maybe it's not so segregated in Bali but the bule for the whole part tend to live in the tourist areas, there are areas where the sasak people congregate. Just as in Lombok there are the areas known as balinese villages where mostly balinese live.

In Lombok we are not in the resort itself but a few km away, in a village where Made & I are the only non muslims. At first Made had a problem with that, no other Balinese in close proximity and several staff have come and gone after only a day or two when they realise how quiet it is and no other Balinese close by.

I hadn't responded to this post yet because I dont think it is as black or white as good expat bad expat. Am I good or bad one, I dont know, I would say I am a grey one.

However I am from London which is full of immigrants, immigrants in London are encouraged to keep their own culture not totally immerse themselves in the British way... notice I say way, not culture Infact anyone in London saying if you dont like it leave, or suggesting that they should leave their cultures behind, now they are in a new home, is likely to be branded a racist.

[Roy]

i wasn't necessarily looking to start a discussion on chinese indonesians in particular with that last post - though it would make for a very interesting discussion.. i was more looking at the natural tendency of people to group together with "their own" (as much as i hate that term)..

With no criticism intended, I think we might agree that what you wrote is an almost perfect description of the Chinese migration over many centuries, and throughout the world. That the Chinese tend to “group together” regardless of where they are, is a simple current, and historical fact. Legitimizing the reasons for that is not my interest, but there is no doubt that this cultural reality by, and of itself, creates discontent within the “host” community.

The reason for that is the often assumed reason for this “grouping together” as being largely based on economics…i.e. keeping the wealth within “the group.” By the very act of non assimilation into the host country, this grouping together assures that the combined wealth of the group is at least maintained, if not expanded by hard work, ergo, prosperity. Eventually, and quite understandably in my opinion, this will lead to jealousy, resentment…and then, perhaps worse.

As horrible as this sounds, this was also a problem that the Jewish people in Europe faced in the 1930’s and 40’s. While that
result ended up to be something entirely different than what I am discussing, the end result would have never occurred if the Jews had entirely assimilated into Western culture. Obviously I don’t offer this observation as any sort of legitimacy for the “final solution” undertaken by the Nazis.

Let’s face it, even to this day, the parental pressure from Chinese parents for their children to marry other Chinese is not unlike the same pressure from Jewish parents. This pressure is not unique by any means, but it is certainly more culturally directed, and perhaps still economically motivated, and I think it’s fair to say that this culturally directed pressure is not a commonality among many other cultures. I “say” this only to draw distinctions, and not to be critical.

I disagree that by being Muslim, or Balinese, that either has anything to do with how this phenomena is perceived by Indonesians as a whole. The Al Quran is brilliant, and if one compares it to the Old Testament, and the Vedic teaching, one will find far more similarities than discrepancies. In my opinion, the only reason this “grouping together” is more of an issue in say, Surabaya, as opposed to Bali, is the simple reason that there are far more Chinese and Chinese Indonesians in Surabaya than in Bali.

[milan]

That the Chinese tend to “group together” regardless of where they are, is a simple current, and historical fact.

It's occuring in Milan too.

[Roy]

Nice to see you posting again Milan. Tenacity and resolve is just a part of what I admire about Indonesian women. There’s a whole lot more, but this is a “family” forum!

[milan]

Thank you, Roy. I was beginning to think maybe I'm not that welcome anymore...

[Roy]

Well, don’t think that. Heck, just consider all the “slings and arrows” (of outrageous BS) I put up with here every week…and for years!

[milan]

Alright. Will try my best. Thanks again.

[Roy]

Well, I just radically changed the prevailing mood here with a post on the members only forum.

Nothing is suggested in that aside from it's something quite different...for sure! Better read it quick, as it may not last long. Cheers!

[BaliLife]

Hi roy,

(Regarding your previous post on chinese migration patterns) I think that's a pretty fair observation, although I'd suggest there are other factors at play other than a closed culture. The most significant thing I think is, chinese emmigration has tended to be large in volumes, so when chinese go to a new city, there are usually distinct areas in which they live, because there are already so many of them there. In perth, it's winthrop, in vancouver it's richmond, etc. But you see the same trends in all ethnic minorities _ be it eastern europeans, indians, arabs, vietnamese, etc. I bet if 1,000,000 indonesians had migrated to australia over the last 3 decades, you'd see the same 'coming together' in communities. So what I'm saying, the fact that chinese emmigrants group together is even more pronounced because of the numbers of them. How many traditional japanese, italians or indian parents are fine with the prospect of their children marrying outside of their own? Not many. But the encouraging thing you see outside of indonesia is that this 'closed culture' usually only stands the test of 1 or 2 generations - after that, you tend to see far more integration and far more interracial marriages. My wife married me - a half bule and half iranian. That got mixed reaction in the early days, but it set the stage for her younger sister to marry a sri-lankan, that was born in zambia and raised in australia.

Unfortunately in indonesia, marriages between chinese indonesians and pribumi are rare - and yes I'd agree that such is moreso related to chinese indonesians views, and less so related to pribumi views, though I'm sure to some pribumi this idea of marrying a chinese indonesian is also unthinkable. So why has integration alluded society here even after many generations of kids being born here? Have political conditions forced chinese indonesians to stick together here? I would say part of the problem is that as you pointed out, chinese immigration to indonesia stems back many centuries, but more importantly, much of the immigration here by chinese happened under dutch rule, at a time when pribumi and chinese migrants fell under different classes within society - those divisions have unfortunately resonated and remained intact.

A few nights ago we were in a coffee shop, my buddy and I. He called the waitress who was walking away, "mbak", she turned around, she was chinese, he quickly said, "oh maaf cik, tolong..".

When I'm introduced to someone new, immediately the expectation is that if it's an older man, that if he's non chinese I call him "pak", if chinese, "om" or "suk", an older lady, if pribumi "ibu", if chinese "tante" or "ai", if a girl my own age, "mbak" for pribumi or "cik" for chinese or a guy is "mas" for non-chinese and "ko" for chinese. Not adhering to such protocol as I attempted in my early days, really just because I couldn't be bothered remembering it all wouldn't be grounds for the firing squad, but you would sound very much out of place. My wife when she goes out gets addressed often as "cik" by non-chinese indonesians. I've asked why they would address her as such, and the answer is, "it's respectful". It appears completely rediculous to me as such could surely only be considered respectful if "mbak" was considered disrespectful, which it clearly is not. Don't get me wrong, it's not offensive, but it's as though the thought is that acknowledging that a person is chinese is going to make them feel more respected - a repulsive notion surely to anybody wanting to see more integration. One thing I like, is that regardless of where you are outside of indonesia, chinese indonesians refer to themselves as indonesians, rarely without ellaboration.

But in a country where the titles of people differ depending on their race, it's hard to see a lot of light at the end of the integration tunnel. I think that's what's most concerning, is that outside indonesia, younger generations rapidly bridge these divides - but in indonesia, the divides seem fam more ingrained than elsewhere.

Let us hope our kids know a different indonesia.

Ct

[milan]

While in a Chinese Restaurant with a "ningrat" (an aristocrat) Indonesian once here in Italy, I was so delighted (the typical happy me) to hear when the owner introduced himself to us that he's Indonesian Chinese. I immediately and animatedly gave him compliments of his success as an Indonesian with the Restaurant as it is unique at that time. My friend turned to me moments later and says: "He's not Indonesian, he's Chinese".
Baffling! For the life of me, I just don't see any difference and it's unsettling when people put emphasis on this.