Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

[Jimbo]

I don't ram religion down my kids throats and I don't let others do it - but I don't tell them my viewpoints either - I will truly let them decide for themselves.. How many practicing 'moderates' give their kids that right? Pretty close to NONE - by time the kid is able to walk they've already been baptised, christened, asked to close their eyes and utter some garbage off with their hands joined

I think you miss my point. It is about values. All children need guidence as they are growing up to maturity and that guidence is the duty of all parents.

Parents themselves may be biased but I can assure you that all parents want the best for their children. How that is done is based on the cultural mores of the society that they are brought up in wether that be christian, Islami or hindu.

You may bring your children up with religious guidence but they will still find it in any place they are and you cannot shield them from it unless you deliberately turn them against religion.

My own children (6) have the full freedom to live their lives according to their will but at least I have (almost) completed my task of instilling in them the rights and wrongs of the two societies they were brought up in.

You do push your aethistic views on people as shown in this forum and making statements that heroin is less harmful than religion is frankly very unwise and does little to promote your cause.

Remember that religion per se is not wrong only some of the peole who practise it.

[FreoGirl]

You do push your aethistic views on people as shown in this forum and making statements that heroin is less harmful than religion is frankly very unwise and does little to promote your cause..

That is very true Balilife, in my opinion of anyone on this forum you are the most vocal when it comes to religion. I would go as far as to say that if any other poster hammered their religious views as hard as you do, it wouldn't be tolerated. No-one else here is as dismissive and as critical of other's viewpoints as you are when it comes to religion. If you had a religion I would say you were not a moderate.

I find it hard to believe that you let your kids make up their own mind when your own beliefs are so strong on the subject.

I also wonder how it would be possible to put a 'no religion' caveat on any type of charity work when it is such an integral part of Indonesian society.

[Lou]

While in broad agreement with Freo Girl and Jimbo I dissent on their implicit definition of religion. From my experience a rabid atheist is as much a religious zealot as a Jehovah's Witness on one's morning doorstep - hopefully rare in Kazakhistan. To me a belief in dialectic materialism is just as much a religion as a belief in some form of deity. "Five thousand years of mild heroin addiction" or "the opiate of the masses" - draw your own conclusions as to a common source. We have in our midst the post modernist incarnation of John the Baptist and just as bloody irritating.

[BaliLife]

Jimbo, Freogirl - point taken.. I will keep my postings in-check and apologize for my not-so moderate views.

Ct

[Thorsten]

Lou, my friend,

great to see you posting again, as always you get the things straight to the point!
I only hope Young Shim wasn’t reading your statement about the bloke from Nazareth – ouch!

best regards
Thorsten

PS: Hope to meet you both soon again!

[BaliLife]

From my experience a rabid atheist is as much a religious zealot as a Jehovah's Witness on one's morning doorstep

I disagree completely. Suggesting one doesn't believe based on science and a quantitative lack of evidence is hardly comparable to a JW. In any case - I'm in the Richard Dawkins boat, so if he's a "religious zealot", count me in!

Ct

[Lou]

It would be a Damascus moment if you did agree with me and there were no expectations in that regard. Nor is there any intention to debate you on a subject of no interest to me. The commitments made in your earlier post to Jimbo and Freo Girl are fine - provided you honor them and stop proselytizing. That will be difficult as can be seen from the final sentence of your last post - but keep on trying, we know you are capable of religion free posting.

[chickchili]

Chickchilli,

The 'catholic' strings attached were in the name of religion - yet again, another crime perpetuated in the name of god.

But the thing is, balilife, the strings attached 'werent in the name of religion at all. He was supposedly being totally unbiased and just making sure that the funding was adminstered within the rules. His religious beliefs were not an issue. But knowing him to be a devout fndamentalist catholic there is no doubt that his beliefs were the issue for him. And I guess thats my comment on the impossibility of there being any situation where the people concerned do not have bias and are not governed by their own cultural values. You can dismiss others' as religion or whatever but it is purely their culturally developed view of the world as is yours and is mine.

[BaliLife]

I just ate a peanut..

There you go lou..

Ct

[SG]

This surprised me .

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_rates, Cuba is 2nd highest at 99.8%, Australia and US and many other countries are on 99.0% and Indonesia is at 90.4%. This puts it 88th in a list of 177, and is in the middle of the other ASEAN countries.

Actually more to the point is this UN site which points to 99% youth literacy, although that said the UNESCO yardstick that literacy is measured by is not much more than being able to write and read a few words.

Unicef

However, and I can't find it anywhere, of more concern was that research from last year which put Indonesia's mathematical literacy in the bottom 20 or so countries, although I found this from 2003:

http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/spreadsheet/3064838

Remember that religion per se is not wrong only some of the people who practise it.

Aren't they the same thing? Most deity based religions are derived in some way or another from a form of historic control, be it by a government, an elite, or a self anointed 'prophet' or a combination of the three.

[Lou]

I just ate a peanut..

There you go lou..

Ct

[goldminer]

As to getting involved in a social side, are any of our members involved in local aussie rules (gekkos i think) or cricket clubs in bali... even as members or officials? When i relocate to live, was hoping to be involved in someway. I love both sports but am getting a bit old to play anymore

[chilli]

It is better to give without condition, but good to give than not give at all, so my take on this is ;

if Balilife has certain ("within reason" conditions) for his funding then so be it..

Also, I beleive that if a parent does not wish to instill any religious denomination upon their children this is their choice. I think teaching our children kindness, respect, generosity (to all life and to the planet, not just people) and to have a conscious in life is far better than drumming any ritual into them.

Because i beleive we are all one, not i am Catholic, Hindu, Potestant, Moslem, etc etc etc.

and on that note; God save America (and forget the rest of the world).

(no insult intended, just thinking out loud)

[BaliLife]

ok so i went on the hunt for my first 'signer upper' today.. i have one little boy in mind.. everytime i see him, i get this "i'm ashamed to be a human being" shiver through my body.. he's 6 years old and is most days out in front of the mall holding newspapers.. i usually buy him oreos and other snacks and 2 days ago gave him 20,000 - but enough is enough.. time has come to make the leap.. i went looking for him today, but he wasn't around.. am going back to the mall soon for my night time coffee, so i will look again.. he's of course extremely shy, so my plan is to have my wife do the talking.. women are of course more approachable for young children.. we need to meet with his parents - the idea is not to give them all they need to survive - my assumption is they still make a minimal amount of money.. the idea is to ascertain why he's working, how much he earns, an then say well, ok.. we're not going to give you money, but you keep him in school, DO NOT allow him / make him work and we'll give you this and that (whatever that will be) - but it will be more than his equivalent earnings, and therefor incentive to keep him in the program.

but if in the coming days i find out his parents sit at home all day and send him to work, while they themselves do nothing, i'll pay some not-so-nice people i know to beat the living crap out of them (and i mean living) and then i'll figure out what i need to do for him.. i'm sure this is not the case, but i wouldn't put it past a human being.. i don't give a toss how politically incorrect this is.. anybody who enslaves their own children (or any children) to subsidize their laziness deserves a broken neck..

monitoring the ongoing 'enrolled' kids to ensure they're not working elsewhere afterhours is the hard thing

will keep everyone updated - (well not on any beatings of course )

ct

[Roy]

You know something, BaliLife? You could learn a lot more about Bali in 5 minutes of talking with my wife, specifically about this charity issue, (which seems to be driving you crazy), than the time you’ve already wasted here agonizing.

What she would say would certainly be echoed by Kadek. And that is this:

Decide what you want to do, (assuming you want to do anything)...do it...and then forget it.

I’ve heard her say this many times, and you know what? She is 100% right on!

[BaliLife]

you're married to a very wise lady by the sound of it roy..

i didn't see my little friend down there tonight, but i shall resume my search tomorrow..

ct