Bali Expat Forum - Bali Travel Forum

[Sumatra]

Tits on a bull

Oh good heavens Tin Tin, is such vulgarity truly necessary!?
Flaming!? I'm merely stating a matter of fact. All expats AREguests of a sovereign nation. If you don't like culture, custom, crime or, punishment, no one has you lashed to a tree forcing you to stay.

Bookdemon, thank you for putting up your dukes for me, I don't think I could have written it better.

Sumatra

[Sumatra]

I don't want to seem terribly cold and callous over the loss of Bert's GSD because I'm not, it's some nasty business to have your dog shot or, poisoned. However, I've dabbled in dog training and I can tell you for sure, the properly trained GSD or Belgian Malinois is best given a wide berth by any potential malefactors.
Bert, I'm sorry for your loss, you've made mention of your furry friend with the large appetite in other posts and I could tell you loved this dog very much.

Sumatra

[mimpimanis]

Sorry to hear about your dog Bert. I may be wrong but I dont think bleeding from the mouth is a symptom of poisoning though. Could he have been hit by a car and had internal bleeding maybe? However he died it is a sad loss but it would be worse to think he had been poisoned by a neighbour and always wonder who, if that wasnt the case.

[BaliLife]

My, my, my,Obviously, many of the expat's in this forum have suddenly forgotten that they are guests in a sovereign nation. Basic rules of etiquette would dictate that when in Rome, do as the Roman's do otherwise, grit your teeth and look the other way.It's called respect.
Sumatra

You're right Sumatra, I wish all those external observers criticizing Zimbabwe and Sudan would just 'grit their teeth'..

Ct

[tintin]

Sorry bookdemon and sumatra, but...

...we were not talking about customs of even dog sacrifices. Sumatra's comments followed the news that Bert thought his dog had been poisoned. Instead of sympathy, such as expressed by Tim, sumatra "moralizes" that expats (like Bert) should remember that they are "guests" of the country and should look the other way. I did not invent it, it's right there for every one to read.

Like Bert would say "that's it."

[bookdemon]

Sorry bookdemon and sumatra, but...

...we were not talking about customs of even dog sacrifices. Sumatra's comments followed the news that Bert thought his dog had been poisoned. Instead of sympathy, such as expressed by Tim, sumatra "moralizes" that expats (like Bert) should remember that they are "guests" of the country and should look the other way. I did not invent it, it's right there for every one to read.

Like Bert would say "that's it."

Well, I interpreted his post in a different way. Even though his message showed up after Bert's post about his tragic loss, it seemed to me that he was addressing the entire thread thus far and wasn't commenting on the latest posts. But who am I to decide? I'll leave that for Sumatra to clarify, if so desired.

[chilli]

There is a point where Religion/customs/spiritual practices/rituals in all countries are questioned as the world becomes globalised.
The world is exposing many issues to bring into our awareness every day through television and newspapers.

The fact that many cruelties exist worldwide doesn't turn it all into a tit for tat subject where this string goes from dogs disappearing in Bali (keeping in theme with the Bali forum) to, well you eat veal na na na nanaa naaaaaaaaaaa, they have KFC , we are allowed to sacrifice dogs/chickens/ducks, because they kick cats, etc.


and in the same breath offer condolences for Berts loss of his family pet (hypocricy)
stealing dogs for sacrificing, or poisoning them is criminal.

IMHO its satanic !

Each one of us has the right to name it whatever we perceive it as.

Mimpi as far as your comment on "if we bred dogs for sacrifice then you wouldnt have an issue with it" totally infuriated me.

I apologise for anyone who may feel this is an offence, perhaps take the focus off yourself and try feeling the animals experience. I would choice to feel offended over slaughtered !
I am done with this forum, i bid you all a wonderful life,

sincerely.

[Bert Vierstra]

Sumatra didn't mean to tell me something about our dog...

Yes, when in Rome do as the Romans.

But what happened to the Romans? Isn't it Italy now?

I don't want to say that the Bule's need to change Bali (far from that), but we live in times where cultures influence each other more than ever.

Are people happy with that?

No.

A Dutch politician made a remark like this:

"In the future we probably will have (in the Netherlands) a Christian / Jewish / Muslim oriented culture" and she was fried because of it, called crazy. The Muslims should adjust to our culture.

But of course she is right. You cannot expect that if you invite, or allow, other cultures to your country and expect things to stay the same.

An example is actually our Dog.

Dewi told me that because of me, she learned to care about Dogs, and before didn't think much of them. (Dogs in her village have sometimes hundreds of ticks)

[milan]

Bookdemon wrote:

I think that Sumatra's post was more in regards to the ways of custom and culture (sacrifices, etc) and not in relation to the idea of dogs being poisoned or whether someone gets mugged or not. Crimes like this should be dealt with obviously, but trying to change a culture's view of religion or custom, etc., is something that shouldn't be done by outsiders, period. Sure, we can bitch and gripe about it all we want but I would never expect other cultures to change their way of life in order to please others who are not part of that same culture. It just doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't want others coming to me and trying to "convert" my way of thinking. Would you?

I agree with that, absolutely...it's like me living here and expect the Italians to stop using swear words out of every sentence uttered (ok, nothing to do with animals but then it's like living in Spain and asking the Spanish to end Bullfights). It's the local culture here to string their sentence with swearword where women too are not absolutely excluded on this to a point where I need to have a wash after hearing that. But it's their culture here and who am I to change. I express my disgust to my husband everytime and even though he still uses them, he has refrained from using them on casual talks (and in this case, it's like you, Bert, pointing the light to Dewi on how dogs could be seen as pets too) - and so, my husband stopped using them. Only when mad - then he's Italian after all and all things go haywire!
The ironic thing is now he is the one who can't bear living in Italy any longer having seen the rudeness and brusqueness of how things are here that he decided to buy a house in Jakarta to live there for the rest of his life.
Therefore, Sumatera is on point in that, yes, there are many things we disagree with the practices by the culture of the country we live in, and if we can't change that; at least we could try to respect it and mind our own business. Just try to make one's own partner see why to you is something unacceptable and just leave at that!. It is up to he or she to do something about it. And in this case, Dewi for Bert --- me for my husband.

[Sumatra]

but what happened to the Roman's? Isn't it Italy now?

That's exactly correct Bert! What was once Rome is now only Italy. The world's greatest and most powerful cultures always seem to devolve and come to a nearly grinding halt. The United States is going tippy-toes out onto this slippery slope right now.
Even the most casual look at world history, seems to reveal that this is a natural process without pattern and we don't really have a great deal of control over it. The problems arise when the current strongest culture arrogantly atttempts to enforce its version of moral and ethical behavior, on other weaker but very strongly established existing cultures.
So, with this in mind Balilife, even though what's occuring in Zimbabwe and the Sudan is quite grotesque and unpalatable it's their problem and they need to work it out accordingly.
Social engineering has always been real bad science.

Sumatra

[mimpimanis]

Chilli

Mimpi as far as your comment on "if we bred dogs for sacrifice then you wouldnt have an issue with it" totally infuriated me.

Just incase you have not yet left Chilli. It seems you missed the point I was trying to convey. I myself have four dogs,a monkey and at one point 6 cats all but the one dog in Bali - are rescue animals that have been dumped on my doorstep or literally thrown over our wall - because I am known to be an anilmal lover in our village. However I do eat meat. I love meat and after 11 years in Indonesia I accept that a chicken having its throat cut for a ceremony and then being eaten is not so different from the chicken I buy in the supermarket.

I was not sugesting that dogs are bred for sacrifice and food but making the point that because they are not we find it more offensive. If as we gew up we were used to seeing dog meat on the supermarket shelf I am sure we would not be having this thread here now.

In short - Should we suddenly start breeding dogs for meat - I am sure I would have an issue with it inso much at least that I would not choose to eat it at least but had it always been the way then no I am sure I would not have nay more an issue with it than I do with other meats that I eat.

[Bert Vierstra]

Even the most casual look at world history, seems to reveal that this is a natural process without pattern and we don't really have a great deal of control over it.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

If you love your culture, prepare for change.

[milan]

If you love your culture, prepare for change.

Agreed.
But change that's decided by the people of this country and not by outsiders...

[mimpimanis]

I cant help wondering if this thread made Chilli leave the forum, if the fact that it actually happens will stop her visiting Bali.

[Roy]

I know I “bowed out” of this discussion a while ago, but all along I was wishing that Kadek would touch on essence of animal sacrifice within Hindu/Dharma in Bali that has not been previously addressed. I guess it just seemed to me that it would be a better thing if a Balinese addressed some of these issues rather than me.

But, in the end, perhaps it’s better if I do this.

I am not going to use the Balinese terms for what I am about to say, rather I would like to present this aspect in very simple terms...words which just might offer a little more insight into the Balinese perspective about this issue.

Please let me assume that most all readers understand the concept of reincarnation within the greater Hindu, and specific Balinese Hindu/Dharma religion. I hope I can also assume that this concept of reincarnation here in Bali is not simply limited to people, but rather, that it applies to ALL living things.

Whenever any animal is sacrificed in a temple ceremony, its soul is immediately purified and brought to the highest level of peace with the Gods that any human can expect. There are a host of Balinese terms that define this process, but in the end, this is the end for that which is sacrificed. Is this difficult to grasp? Very likely it is, amongst those who sit on the side lines and cast dispersions, but those dispersions cannot be taken as anything less than religious discrimination, or so I say anyway.

So, am I am saying in so many words that dogs sacrificed in Balinese ceremonies immediately enter a “doggy heaven?” The answer is YES for the Balinese. The same goes for ducks, or whatever animal is sacrificed.

At the 100 year ceremonies for most all Balinese temples, each and every known creature, from a simple flea, to a horse or water buffalo is sacrificed. This all happened at Pura Besakih in 1979, or there about. It has happened since too.

Is it appropriate, and as demanded by the West that this all stops? My opinion is NO!

My opinion is to let time take its course, and influences settle in.

IMHO, our best influence, as expats, is to demonstrate, by example only, our attitudes towards dogs or any other living creatures that grasps our emotional attention which is clearly the prodigy of our own culture. Any attempt to “force feed” the Balinese with our ideology will only fall on deaf ears, and that is as it should be!

In my opinion, this string, specifically, the topic at hand, has evolved from the sublime to the ridiculous, and with very little understanding of the Balinese culture emerging as a result. That is NOT a good thing.

In all honesty, I really don’t care to read much more of the highly charged emotional comments that are based on dogs, as pets, and as sleeping partners...which has resulted in one overly emotional member quitting this forum. In the Balinese manner of thinking, that is ridiculous, funny, and without any sense. Abdicating one’s right, as a man or woman, for the right of free speech over animal rights is absurd. And that is not only in the mind of most of Balinese...rather, it is in my mind as well.

This is Bali!

Here, in Bali, the “dark side” is respected and paid as much attention as the “light side.” Here, it is understood, and a part of daily life, that the energy between those forces are the driving influences of our daily lives. Too many expats, let alone visitors to Bali, will ever understand that an equal effort for those “light” or “good” forces are also spent on the “dark” or evil forces.

Bali is all about balance.

[Roy]

Too many expats, let alone visitors to Bali, will ever understand that an equal effort for those “light” or “good” forces are also spent on the “dark” or evil forces.

Should read,

Not too many expats, let alone visitors to Bali, will ever understand that an equal effort for those “light” or “good” forces are also spent on the “dark” or evil forces.

Ma'af.